Ducks good?

unimproved · #1 03-28-2005, 07:30 PM

Another short checkup hand. Villain is 26/8/2.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

A bit thin maybe. If BB calls which I believe he will, this is okay. If he folds or 3-bets, it's less so, but I don't see either of those as likely.

Flop: (10 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, BB folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks.

Yeah?

applej25 · #2 03-28-2005, 07:51 PM

This is a line I frequently take HU or maybe with 2 opps. Not sure about it here.... But given that you got it heads up on the flop I like it. I do hope you are planning on calling a river bet, but I would have probably gone ahead and lead out and folded to a raise.

Oh yeah, and your read on your pre-flop decision is right. Probably should be a fold.

unimproved · #3 03-28-2005, 08:00 PM

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This is a line I frequently take HU or maybe with 2 opps. Not sure about it here.... But given that you got it heads up on the flop I like it.

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Yeah, it did strike me that perhaps there were a few too many seeing the flop to be attempting the c/r with 22, but I'm not sure how much of that is just conditioning from being a recent microlimit graduate. This line seems to be a lot more effective at 5/10, though the long term may prove me wrong.

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I do hope you are planning on calling a river bet, but I would have probably gone ahead and lead out and folded to a raise.

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I certainly am calling the river bet, but liked a check here at the time. I'm pretty certain he holds AK or AQ. AK probably isn't calling, but may bluff if checked to. AQ is calling or raising and winning the showdown, so the bet isn't really for value, and I hate getting raised and having to fold (I don't know if Villain is capable of bluff-raising here to represent AQ). If my thinking is wrong here go ahead and pick me up on it.

Edited to say 'to represent AQ'. Because Villain trying to represent AK here would be a bit stupid.

applej25 · #4 03-28-2005, 08:11 PM

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I certainly am calling the river bet, but liked a check here at the time. I'm pretty certain he holds AK or AQ. AK probably isn't calling, but may bluff if checked to. AQ is calling or raising and winning the showdown, so the bet isn't really for value, and I hate getting raised and having to fold (I don't know if Villain is capable of bluff-raising here to represent AK). If my thinking is wrong here go ahead and pick me up on it.

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Looking back I think the check is a better option as you only get called by better hands. I don't know what i was thinking about when I said I lead the river here. AS you have pointed out there is not much value in that. My mistake!

flopmonster · #5 03-28-2005, 08:19 PM

I thinkthe check/raise on the flop may be a bit risky, but you were the one at the table and you know best how loose everyone is in calling 2 bets cold. Everything else looks good. What is your turn action if someone else cold calls?

unimproved · #6 03-28-2005, 08:27 PM

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I thinkthe check/raise on the flop may be a bit risky, but you were the one at the table and you know best how loose everyone is in calling 2 bets cold. Everything else looks good. What is your turn action if someone else cold calls?

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Probably bet a non-broadway, non-club turn and see what happens, though I'm not sure how much I like this line.

Edited to remove rambling.

kurosh · #7 03-28-2005, 08:48 PM

PF is close but position and the smallness of the pair would make me lean towards folding.

Postflop, you will lose a lot of money in the long run overplaying hands like this. This was horribly played IMO. You got lucky no one caught a piece of that board. You got lucky button doesn't have a big PP (he might be getting tricky with one on the river, dunno).

unimproved · #8 03-28-2005, 08:58 PM

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PF is close but position and the smallness of the pair would make me lean towards folding.

Postflop, you will lose a lot of money in the long run overplaying hands like this. This was horribly played IMO.

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Comments appreciated. As I said before, I've never played in games before where this line has been even remotely viable. I'm still trying to ascertain whether there's any value in it.

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You got lucky no one caught a piece of that board.

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Point. My gut feeling was that no-one had hit it particularly hard unless they had a club draw. I can't see MP3 or CO limping with a hand with a 9 in it, A9o/A9s would have been raised from their position, and I'm not sure they'd limp T9s/98s here (though I suppose it's more possible for CO than MP3)? And I wasn't sure if either of them would stick around to a flop c/r if they'd paired a 3 or 5.

Glad of the response, anyway. Would this be less bad if I were in this spot with two/three opponents rather than four, or I held, say, 66?

PokerProdigy · #9 03-28-2005, 09:11 PM

Maybe NOT, but I still say you go for the check and then call (if he bets) because you came this far, the pot is pretty big by now, and there is a possiblity your opponent was on a flush draw.

kurosh · #10 03-28-2005, 09:58 PM

Ok, I'll explain a bit more. Firstly, if you're going to play the hand like this, you need to bet the river and fold to a raise.

About 33% of the time he'll have a big pair here (I think so anyway, this is based off memory, I could be wrong.) In his position, I would wait until the turn to raise and maybe the river if I know you're a donk who keeps on firing. In those situations, you lose a lot while drawing to 2 outs.

The rest of the time, someone else will probably have a flush draw or a 9 or something bigger and is waiting for the PFR to bet so they can raise. Your relative position to the PFR sucks. When they open-limp in MP3 and CO, that leads me to believe they're loose and suck, therefore could be limping with anything.

Assuming you're ahead, even if everyone else folds besides the PFR, you have a great chance of getting outdrawn.

HU and maybe 3 handed it would be different but I like position in those situations. This is just a bad situation to be in. Check-fold the flop.