Advice on AQ

Live 4/8
I'm in a middle position, one limper to me, I raise with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], next to act calls, the button calls, small blind calls, big blind three bets, everyone calls three, six people to the flop:
J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
small blind checks, big blind bets, next to act folds, i call, button calls, three people see the turn:
A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
big blind checks, i bet, button folds, big blind calls. Heads up to the river:
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check, I bet, he raises? What is my play here.

[adios]

BB three bet pre-flop so I don't think he's got three 6's. Could be slowplaying AA,JJ,88, AJ or maybe quad 66. FWIW IMO there's enough doubt and the pot's laying you enough to look him up.

[hobbsmann]

Call. I'm kind of sucker for paying people off when that take wierd lines like this. Seriously though, the pot is large and I think there is enough of a chance this guy is doing this crap with a) another AQ or b) KK/QQ that calling is worthwhile.

Of course its easy to give advise after the hand. However, before deciding what to do with his check raise to you, the question may be, why did you bet? This hand spells trouble because there has been a decent amount of action the the BB been part of it. At the end of the day, you have only 1 pair (not including the 6's). I play alot of 4/8 and I know plenty of players that would 3 bet pre-flop with pocket 6's. In my opinion, it was a blessing when he checked to you. This falls under the catagory, "he would only call you (or raise) with a better hand. As for what to do now, I say you have to call one more bet. This reminds me of the saying, "a good play can set a trap, but a great player can smell one." His play smells fishy to me.
Regards,
miketomK82

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course its easy to give advise after the hand. However, before deciding what to do with his check raise to you, the question may be, why did you bet? This hand spells trouble because there has been a decent amount of action the the BB been part of it. At the end of the day, you have only 1 pair (not including the 6's). I play alot of 4/8 and I know plenty of players that would 3 bet pre-flop with pocket 6's. In my opinion, it was a blessing when he checked to you. This falls under the catagory, "he would only call you (or raise) with a better hand. As for what to do now, I say you have to call one more bet. This reminds me of the saying, "a good play can set a trap, but a great player can smell one." His play smells fishy to me.
Regards,
miketomK82

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Wrong. This is a very obvious value bet. Hands like 99, TT, QQ, KK and even sometimes a worse A or even worse pocket pair is probably going to call a river bet.

Failing to bet this river is a big, big, big mistake. Winning low limit hold'em is all about sacking up and value-betting.

I call the river basically because my opponent clearly played his hand in a weird, irrational way which, if he had a good hand, obviously risked costing himself tons and tons of money if his plan backfired. The confusion and the pot size are enough to make me look him up. I think we'll see a desperation bluff with QQ here often enough to make it worthwhile, and seeing his hand will do wonders for playing against him in the future.

I say, look the guy up. You may call his bet a "value bet" but, realatively speaking, I don't see 1 pair winning many hands in LL Holdem. I agree that 99, TT, QQ, and KK will often call and you'll earn an extra bet. But typically, they won't raise with them. Checking this hand on the river avoids the delima he's faced with now. LL Holdem is about value betting but its also about protecting your stack.

[W. Deranged]

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I don't see 1 pair winning many hands in LL Holdem.

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Then you haven't played enough low limit hold'em.

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Checking this hand on the river avoids the delima he's faced with now.

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That doesn't make it right. Such a timid, defeatist attitude is characteristic of losing players.

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LL Holdem is about value betting...

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...yes...

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...but its also about protecting your stack.

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...no... Where did you get this idea? I hope what you mean to say is "avoiding making -EV bets/call." Thinking in terms of "protecting your stack" or "not putting your money at risk," is, again, a timid and defeatist attitude characteristic of losing players. (This isn't a tournament, after all...)

Welcome to the Forum.

your river play: stare at him, talk at him, ask some questions of him & otherwise put him on the spot for a minute or two, then raise or call...

Anytime you put your money in the pot, you're putting it at risk. My point, is to put it at risk when you think you're ahead or have the right odds on a draw or semi-bluffing, etc. In the senario originally posted, I don't see how one can believe they're ahead with any confidence.
I see players all the time be over aggressive and over play wrong hands. If they catch a run of cards they're pumped-up but almost always leave cleaned out. Does that remind you of anyone?
By the way, that's the first time I've ever been charaterized as having a timid and defeatist attitude. Were you beat-up as a kid?
Thanks for welcoming me to the form.

I guess I don't understand the flop call.

You have a backdoor flush: 1.5 outs.
You have two overcards, I'd say worth 1.5 outs per overcard.

That's 4.5 outs. Is that enough to call?

EDIT: I didn't see the straight, but that's still only about 1.5 outs more, for 6 total...