doh! here we go

Alobar · #1 01-23-2005, 05:34 AM

This is the hand I was thinking about when I posted the other one by mistake.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

I know this bastard has a 6 and not an Ace. How horrible is my river check? A bet here HAS to win 1 time in 10, no? I just checked out of utter dismay about being wronged cruelly by the river instead of thinking.

arkady · #2 01-23-2005, 05:39 AM

You gotta bet this closing the action, there is a slight chance his kicker *MIGHT* make him fold, assuming he even realizes that his pair is counterfeited. I just don't see what you are losing here.

Tuco · #3 01-23-2005, 07:41 AM

I don't like the 3 bet on the turn much. Whats wrong with calling him down? IF he has a 6 you win (and hes obviously not folding) and if he has an ace you lose less.

After you get to the river in this fashion, however, it's a pretty obvious bet.

Tuco.

tj00 · #4 01-23-2005, 08:50 AM

He does not seem like the type to fold a better hand than yours even 10% of the time. If he would call with 67,65,64,63,62, it would make betting more attractive. I would have checked too in the heat of battle.

MrFeelNothin · #5 01-23-2005, 09:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He does not seem like the type to fold a better hand than yours even 10% of the time. If he would call with 67,65,64,63,62, it would make betting more attractive. I would have checked too in the heat of battle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this entire post. What makes you think this opponent would call with hands that play the board? Alobar gave no read, let alone a read that labeled the villian insane. This is a question of whether or not to make a bluff bet, not a value bet.

spider · #6 01-23-2005, 01:48 PM

in the absence of a read i would think about the hand like this:

flop: call raise (classic if behind minimize loss, if ahead let him keep bluffing. overcards are a concern, but not enough to offset IMO.)

turn: raise intending to take free showdown (if turn had been undercard to your 8, i really like this. i think i still like it with a turn T, but calling might be OK. if you could reliably fold to a turn 3bet, then i think you raise regardless of the turn card.)

river: unless underpairs to a ten just got counterfeited.

i think river is pretty complicated here. really depends on his inclination to play any two suited. i think you need him to be fairly likely to be on crap suited (K6 to J6 basically) and willing to fold it. that combo may not be too likely.

what about PPs? you might knock him off 99, but that's about the only one you could fold out that you want to fold out.

man, i thought the river check was bad at first glance, but i'm not so sure now...

i would also add that you could easily get check-raised here by Ax when the kicker no longer matters, so you need a plan for that. minor point overall, though...

Alobar · #7 01-23-2005, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

turn: raise intending to take free showdown (if turn had been undercard to your 8, i really like this. i think i still like it with a turn T, but calling might be OK. if you could reliably fold to a turn 3bet, then i think you raise regardless of the turn card.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was intending. Which also is one of the reasons the river screwed me up, becuause I was inending to check anyway, my brain didnt switch gears fast enough to now bet.

[ QUOTE ]

i think river is pretty complicated here. really depends on his inclination to play any two suited. i think you need him to be fairly likely to be on crap suited (K6 to J6 basically) and willing to fold it. that combo may not be too likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is what I put him on, and I dont think its at all that unlikely considering he completed from the SB, lots of people will complete with any face suited.

He shows 96s and HHWG. He then called me an idiot in chat for not betting the river, which is kind of funny, but just pissed me off since I was already mad at myself, heh.

spider · #8 01-23-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well this is what I put him on, and I dont think its at all that unlikely considering he completed from the SB, lots of people will complete with any face suited.

He shows 96s and HHWG. He then called me an idiot in chat for not betting the river, which is kind of funny, but just pissed me off since I was already mad at myself, heh.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raised pre-flop though, so it wasn't really a complete was it? Complete means no PFR to me.

96s, huh? Actually after I mentioned K6 to J6 I realized I should've included 96s there...

But I wouldn't beat myself up over this, there were really very few better hands he would've folded there. 99 is the main other one, maybe J6 & Q6. I'd guess he calls K6 almost every time since he's going to suspect you may have hated the river as much as him.

Alobar · #9 01-23-2005, 04:20 PM

You raised pre-flop though, so it wasn't really a complete was it? Complete means no PFR to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, good point.

Apocalypse · #10 01-23-2005, 04:41 PM

why are you people actually discussing this rivercheck. Its terrible, disgusting thats all theres to it. Every player that won't fire at the river here in a 10BB pot after all the force he has put on this pot representing something "monstrous" is crazy. Why he has put this much force on the turn is beyond me (i can see capping the flop, but really: there is NO NEED to raise the turn here). Narrowing hands is fine and all that, but please explain why this guy MUST have a six, and not any other kind of a pocketpair? Don't all those hands add to the lousy 10%-threshold you think is too high for making a +EV-bluffbet at the river. Point is: you don't check, you don't check, you don't check here.