Racism in the NBA and NFL

[TheRover]

I just want to say that this is a great post. Nicely done.

[MEbenhoe]

doug, you're absolutely correct, the problem is you were able to come to this conclusion due to your education in the world of business, which makes it possible for you to understand these types of things.

i agree with the draft age requirements, especially those for football. cmon anyone who honestly thinks the # of high schoolers entering the nba draft on bad advice recently isnt high is insane. You can list off the garnetts and mcgradys, but what about the Ousmane Cisse's and Lenny Cooke's? Never heard of them? there's a reason for that. 24 players declared out of high school this year, in a year where there were at most 2 who should have.

as far as the dress code, its not racist but it is dumb. let the players dress however they want as long as its not offensive.

[gonores]

It doesn't take a business major to realize that a rookie basketball player or football player will get paid a higher percentage of a franchise's worth than their baseball or hockey counterparts. All you need to do is see things from the owner's side for a second.

24 players declaring straight out of high school....that's pathetic.

[SammyKid11]

Okay, lotta responses since I was online a few hours ago. First of all, thanks to the serious responses. Let me attempt to respond to the different arguments that have been made thus far. I'll be grouping because some people have repeated similar points.

Argument Number one was Asufuji2004's claim that the NHL requires you to be 19-21

You have been pwned. There are, in fact, 18 year olds in the NHL. You simply failed to comprehend the rules you read, as Triumph36 pointed out.

Argument Number Two, made by Josh W, is that the NBA and NFL have made business decisions to appeal to their core fans, and those decisions merely have the appearance of racism because possibly the average sports fan is racist.

Yeah, this is basically what I think is happening. Notice in my original post I don't blame any specific individuals for overtly racist policies. I'm not claiming institutional racism here...just de facto racism. For any not clear, what I mean by that is because NBA and NFL officials are making decisions they believe will make white ticket-buyers happy, the greatest thing they are guilty of is the assumption that their ticket-buyers want black guys dressing like white guys and want athletes in predominantly black sports to not be so rich so young. I think there are degrees of that sentiment in the general sporting community, and that perhaps the NBA and NFL are overreacting to that sentiment (ie - I don't actually think most basketball fans care whether Iverson wears Armani or Atlanta Hawks throwback).

Artdogg makes the claim that WR is the one example of a position player who can survive in the NFL at 18, 19, or in many cases 20 years old...he says that every other position would get their ass kicked, which is why the rule is in place. Others have made the general injury claim as well.

I have a few responses...
First of all, WR is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, injury-wise. You're going full-speed and leaping into the air over the middle when you get drilled by a linebacker. So many serious injuries happen in this manner...if a WR can make it at 19, so can a lot of other positional players. Certainly kickers and punters, as well as physically-mature linemen possibly. I'm pretty certain you couldn't make it as an NFL QB without the experience...and certainly there are other positions on the field like that as well -- linebacker and CB come to mind.

Second of all, though (and more importantly)...if that is already the case (that very few players will be ready to play in the NFL at 18, 19, 20 years old)...why do we need a rule that prohibits ALL players from doing so? Are team owners and GM's SUCH bad judges of talent that they can't distinguish between a 19-year-old who is ready for the NFL versus a 19-year-old who is NOT ready for the NFL? Why punish the Mike Williams of the world? What gives anyone the RIGHT to punish the Mike Williams of the world (except for a horrible court ruling)?

As for the general risk-to-the-player argument...we're unwilling to let players (only in predominantly black sports) "risk their bodies" to play at a professional level and make LOTS of money because of some perceived harm that may befall them if they try......yet we seem entirely comfortable sending 18-year-old kids (a disproportionate number of whom are minorities) to Iraq and Afghanistan and make HORRIBLE money while thousands of terrorists spend every hour of every day trying to kill them. Please, nobody fein concern for the welfare of these kids' bodies as a good reason to institutionally bar them from trying to make a living with their skills.

Triumph36 makes a point about having a minor-league system in the NBA and NFL.

This is actually what I believe is the answer to the problem. You can't tell me there aren't mid-level cities in America (Tunica, Shreveport, Laramie, Austin, Birmingham, Youngstown, Colorado Springs, etc.) that wouldn't support minor-league NFL and NBA teams, providing it was organized and marketed properly. This would create two avenues for "honing your skills" in these two sports if you weren't ready for the big-time...college AND a viable professional mechanism. Baseball players use both avenues frequently (as do hockey players) and both systems work quite well. It gives kids who want to make a living at their skills RIGHT NOW an opportunity to do so...and it also gives kids who can progress quickly through those systems an opportunity to get to the big-time sooner, proving themselves to their franchises at a lower risk. Individual teams can then decide for themselves if they want to start EVERY draft pick on their minor league team or if they'll judge it case-by-case, etc. This is the type of solution that no one has executed.

Pudge 714 and Jorge10 make the claim that only a few high-schoolers have been successes in the NBA, while most have been failures.

This is simply untrue. In another case of not being able to find it in the archives at ESPN.com, I'm sorry for not being able to provide the specific reference. But one of their columnists did an in-depth study of all 30-40 high schoolers drafted into the NBA over the last ten years (since Kevin Garnett in '95 popularized the previously sparse process). ESPN found that high-school draftees had a higher percentage of players still in the NBA after five full seasons than non-high-school draftees and that they had a lower-percentage of off-the-court problems (legal, bad publicity, etc.) than did non-high-school draftees. Plus, out of a relatively small number of high-school draftees over the last ten years (35'ish)...a disproportionately high number of them have become bona fide superstars...including Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Rashard Lewis, LeBron James, Dwight Howard, and Amare Stoudemire.

Claiming that the NBA's high school experiment has been unsuccessful either on or off the court is simply a falsehood. Other factors are at work, here. Whether those are racist or not...up to each to decide because there's no hard evidence. But it's not due to lack of success of the players.

Jorge10 also points out the example of the Oakland A's and why they don't draft from high school.

Excellent, Jorge. Thank you for proving my point. The A's are a high-quality franchise that contends for division titles year-in and year-out, and they don't draft high-schoolers. See, you don't need a rule impeding the economic opportunity of young, almost-always black athletes. Teams themselves have the choices here, and can make whatever choice they want. If 18-year olds aren't good for a team, they don't have to choose them. Let the market and each individual's skills decide.

NeedsMoreNuts basically calls me a racist for making my points...saying that I'm generalizing how white people generalize about black people...he then ridicules my arguments by acting like I said Klansmen were running both leagues...he then espouses that college ball will usually help an athlete.

Firstly, thanks for being a tool and calling ME PERSONALLY a racist, though I made no such claim about ANYONE in my original post. I'm calling what's happening in the NBA and NFL an example of de facto racism -- not claiming Klansmen are running those leagues. If you're not sophisticated enough to *get* that while reading my post, I'm afraid we have little to discuss.

Yes, I'm interpreting certain rules to be grounded (at their possibly SUBCONSCIOUS core) in racism because they affect an astronomical amount more blacks than whites...and because in similar circumstances in sports that are dominated by whites, no such rules are existant nor do the vast majority of people feel are necessary.

I do not believe that contention in any way makes me a racist.

As for college ball helping most athletes...yeah, maybe it does. But the bottom line is this. If you're 18 years old and really smart and already earned a degree in accounting (the prerequisite to being an accountant), you should not be told that you have to be an accountant for FREE for two years to prove that you can do it...when there are PLENTY of firms already willing to hire you. Same principle applies here. Yeah, college ball is good for many players...and there are others who already have completed their prerequisite for being in the pros (their skills are there). That should be left up to the market of employers to decide...the right to be judged by the market and paid according to your ability should not be stripped from you just because most others need more development to succeed. And in all the predominantly-white sports, those rights aren't taken away from the exceptional. In both of the predominantly-black sports, those rights ARE being taken away from the exceptional.

Hence my case for racism. Decide what you will, but I think there's enough merit there to not resort to calling me a racist for bringing it up.

Clarkmeister makes the point that because the NBA is a business and players want to be treated like businessmen, they should be expected to dress in a business-like manner.

I don't necessarily disagree with this...I just wonder why it is that "business-like dress" has to be so rigid and determinant by white people. For a basketball player, their "business dress" is their jersey and shorts...no one is arguing that they shouldn't have to wear jerseys and shorts at the games. But before and after the games, we want to impose a dress code that forces them to look like corporate white America? WHY??? You MUST wear a jersey during the game, and you're FORBIDDEN from wearing jerseys before and after games. This simply doesn't make sense. Basketball players AREN'T lawyers or accountants or doctors or CEO's. They're guys who play sports for a living...and many of them are a heavy influence on black culture, some of which DOESN'T value a coat and tie as highly as stuffy white people do (just as some segments of white America, like me, don't value it either...part of why I became a gambler and a musician...to ESCAPE that sort of treatment).

Clarkmeister and gonores both make good arguments about team's financial needs, how younger players cost teams money because they draft them while they're still developing...gonores goes on to give analysis about differing team's total budgets versus the amounts they spend signing unproven players, etc.

These are very valid points. I only refer you to mine and others reasoning for why serious minor-league systems need to be in place...and also to a previous argument I've made about each individual having the right to be judged by the job market available based on his skills. Teams themselves must be accountable for who they decide to hire, just like each company must be held accountable as well. If ALL insurance companies decided, "you know, lots of hires straight out of college do not pan out...therefore, as an INDUSTRY (screams of illegal trusts), we are declaring that you must be at least two years out of college to work in the insurance industry, regardless of your skill," people would be irate over that decision. EACH COMPANY must decide for themselves who's qualified and who's not. Same for each team...if the NBA and NFL can't get their finances in order well enough to not violate people's right to work, that's their problem and it's time to put their houses in order in other ways. And perhaps their failure to do so is driving the current insanity.

However, none of the arguments posted here have provided smoking gun proof that at least SOME of these "business decisions" aren't at least partially motivated by trying to satisfy a perceived fundamentally-racist market demand. And THAT is the entire point I'm making. In the two major team sports dominated by black athletes, the only viable option available to kids who are talented enough to make money at 17, 18, 19 years old is to either LEAVE THE COUNTRY (or hopefully, the D-league will soon be a viable option)...or be an indentured servant in college, offering your skills to a university who will profit 50 times over the price of your scholarship. In all other major sports, this is not the case. Sometimes if it looks like it, sounds like it, and smells like it...it's because it IS it. I'm not saying overtly or even purposefully...but there is a racist result every bit akin to the mandatory minimums for crack versus powder cocaine...and something needs to be done about it.

Man, this was a long post. I should have separated each response. Sorry.

[SCfuji]

for every 1 mike williams i give you thousands of maurice clarett's. you lose.

[ QUOTE ]

I have a few responses...
First of all, WR is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, injury-wise. You're going full-speed and leaping into the air over the middle when you get drilled by a linebacker. So many serious injuries happen in this manner...if a WR can make it at 19, so can a lot of other positional players. Certainly kickers and punters, as well as physically-mature linemen possibly. I'm pretty certain you couldn't make it as an NFL QB without the experience...and certainly there are other positions on the field like that as well -- linebacker and CB come to mind.

Second of all, though (and more importantly)...if that is already the case (that very few players will be ready to play in the NFL at 18, 19, 20 years old)...why do we need a rule that prohibits ALL players from doing so? Are team owners and GM's SUCH bad judges of talent that they can't distinguish between a 19-year-old who is ready for the NFL versus a 19-year-old who is NOT ready for the NFL? Why punish the Mike Williams of the world? What gives anyone the RIGHT to punish the Mike Williams of the world (except for a horrible court ruling)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but you couldnt be any more wrong about other positions having a chance. I left kickers and punters out cause those arent real football positions, but theres no chance a lineman can jump from high school to the pros, its so much of a faster more physical game. Comparing the pros to high school is like high school to pee wees its that big a difference. The same goes for any defensive position, they would get pounded by almost anyone blocking them and completely run over. Their bodies are just not ready for that level.

The reason I brought up recievers as one of those with a 1% chance of making it is cause other then getting jammed at the line of scrimmage they have to deal with the physical nature of the game less then basically any other position, unlike linemen who have it every play. The reason WRs are so injury prone is it usually comes hits when they are in odd positions and those that they cant defend themselves, most of which the player himself cant avoid no matter what.

Now to your second point, what do you suggest they do? Have a screening process to see who is ready? Theres no way they can know without them actually playing in the NFL. You cant tell by the high school and first year college. Let me say Im not pulling this out of my ass, I know people of different positions then were one of the best at what they did at the college level, but when they made it to the NFL they just couldn't hang, and this is after all those years in college. This is why the rule is there that people must have those extra years to prepare themselves.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
for every 1 mike williams i give you thousands of maurice clarett's. you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a thorough response that has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of my posts. You can't answer the charges I'm making with snappy one-liners, dude. I do not lose, least not to that.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have a few responses...
First of all, WR is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, injury-wise. You're going full-speed and leaping into the air over the middle when you get drilled by a linebacker. So many serious injuries happen in this manner...if a WR can make it at 19, so can a lot of other positional players. Certainly kickers and punters, as well as physically-mature linemen possibly. I'm pretty certain you couldn't make it as an NFL QB without the experience...and certainly there are other positions on the field like that as well -- linebacker and CB come to mind.

Second of all, though (and more importantly)...if that is already the case (that very few players will be ready to play in the NFL at 18, 19, 20 years old)...why do we need a rule that prohibits ALL players from doing so? Are team owners and GM's SUCH bad judges of talent that they can't distinguish between a 19-year-old who is ready for the NFL versus a 19-year-old who is NOT ready for the NFL? Why punish the Mike Williams of the world? What gives anyone the RIGHT to punish the Mike Williams of the world (except for a horrible court ruling)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but you couldnt be any more wrong about other positions having a chance. I left kickers and punters out cause those arent real football positions, but theres no chance a lineman can jump from high school to the pros, its so much of a faster more physical game. Comparing the pros to high school is like high school to pee wees its that big a difference. The same goes for any defensive position, they would get pounded by almost anyone blocking them and completely run over. Their bodies are just not ready for that level.

The reason I brought up recievers as one of those with a 1% chance of making it is cause other then getting jammed at the line of scrimmage they have to deal with the physical nature of the game less then basically any other position, unlike linemen who have it every play. The reason WRs are so injury prone is it usually comes hits when they are in odd positions and those that they cant defend themselves, most of which the player himself cant avoid no matter what.

Now to your second point, what do you suggest they do? Have a screening process to see who is ready? Theres no way they can know without them actually playing in the NFL. You cant tell by the high school and first year college. Let me say Im not pulling this out of my ass, I know people of different positions then were one of the best at what they did at the college level, but when they made it to the NFL they just couldn't hang, and this is after all those years in college. This is why the rule is there that people must have those extra years to prepare themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still being non-responsive to my basic point. Teams are capable of making judgment calls for themselves...why penalize the 1%? And why are those 1% (and a higher proportional number in the NBA) only penalized in the two sports which feature a large proportion of black players? You gotta get deeper into the analysis than "most people aren't ready for the NFL at age 18, so the rule is fine."

[Jorge10]

You answered your own question is seems. Its not racism, just business practices the leagues are forced to resort to because there is no minor league system in place.

I think you are correct, there is definately a place for minor league football and basketball.

Also the Oakland A's can do this because most baseball teams are terrible at drafting because its not a big deal as the minor league system for baseball is perfect. Drafting like a moron doesnt doom a team. I mean ask the Yankees if its hurt them? The NFL is all about the draft because of the lack of a minor league system, same thing with the NBA.

[ QUOTE ]
You're still being non-responsive to my basic point. Teams are capable of making judgment calls for themselves...why penalize the 1%? And why are those 1% (and a higher proportional number in the NBA) only penalized in the two sports which feature a large proportion of black players? You gotta get deeper into the analysis than "most people aren't ready for the NFL at age 18, so the rule is fine."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well see there in lies the problem. You cant just let certain people go to the training camps. Youd have to let everyone, and it might take a lot of the focus off of a lot of people actually going to college where they actually have a shot to work on their game and get to that level. Obviously 99.9999999999999% of them are wasting their time.

Most importantly though its the NFLs job to protect their players to some degree, and theres no way any NFL scout teams can know a player is ready for the NFL without him playing a real NFL game. Theres not a team in the league that has practices even 1/3rd of the speed or 1/10th of the contact that happens in a real game. Its just a completely different atmosphere.

How can you not tell the difference between a 16 year old playing golf and an 18 year old playing football? BTW this post has nothing to do with the other sports that are in question just football for now.