AK: opponent bets 3rd diamond

#1 08-04-2005, 03:08 PM

Opponent is typically bad 2/4 player.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero's action

I have a lot of opponents betting into me on this type of board after betting into me on the flop. What do I do? I have no data on opponent, but he's no TAG or anything.

Also is my play different if I have the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

SmileyEH · #2 08-04-2005, 03:10 PM

I think you can raise in both cases. Maybe fold to a 3bet.

-SmileyEH

W. Deranged · #3 08-04-2005, 03:12 PM

I think the play here is definitely to raise the turn, with the intent of probably folding to a three-bet. I'm planning on value-betting the river if checked to, though.

Sometimes this donk-bet represents a flush. A lot of the time, though, it represents a weaker made hand that doesn't want the turn to check through.

A raise here is very good because it charges a stray diamond the maximum. If opponent has a flush, he may well three-bet, which *might* allow us to get away from the hand if we have some kind of read. I think a call here is not good because we basically have no outs if we're behind and our opponent could potentially have a ton. Bet/raise without outs (reverse implied odds...), check-call with outs (implied odds...)

With the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in our hand, I really like calling the turn with the intent to raise the river. For the argument, you can basically reverse everything I just said about why I like a raise in the original hand. See why?

butters · #4 08-04-2005, 03:15 PM

i'd raise and fold to a three-bet. i see this as a bluff or semibluff a lot of the time. raising is better than calling, since you can fold to a three-bet and also charge him if he's drawing with a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], i'd call, since you'll need to see the river and don't want to pay three big bets to do it.

SmileyEH · #5 08-04-2005, 03:20 PM

Raising and folding to a 3bet as a default is a leak. There are many players that will 3bet with worse hands. Not that 3bet/folding is wrong all the time, but it shouldn't be your default. If you raise not sure whether your opp is capable of 3beting a worse hand you should just call. This is a common mistake I see in TAG's at 2/4 all the time. Try not to put yourself in situations where you aren't sure whether folding or calling is correct because it sets you up for big mistakes.

-SmileyEH

W. Deranged · #6 08-04-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], i'd call, since you'll need to see the river and don't want to pay three big bets to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful of thinking too weak-tightly here; our hand is still going to be very much the best most of the time, and we are looking to maximize value. So we should call to raise the river, because it gets the most money in, while having the advantage of not forcing us to put in a third big bet on the turn. (That third big bet is one we don't want to put in, because it usually means we are behind; waiting for the river, though, is preferred because of it's value creation in addition to this.)

W. Deranged · #7 08-04-2005, 03:23 PM

FWIW, I'm probably calling down a three-bet against an unknown, but I'm not going to be happy about it.

A turn raise is right here, in my opinion, because we are going to be ahead so much of the time and getting our money in against a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw is an absolute must.

SmileyEH · #8 08-04-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I'm probably calling down a three-bet against an unknown, but I'm not going to be happy about it.

A turn raise is right here, in my opinion, because we are going to be ahead so much of the time and getting our money in against a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw is an absolute must.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, the big leak is where you raise and fold to a 3bet from an unknown.

-SmileyEH

Nick C · #9 08-04-2005, 03:30 PM

He may have a pair and a diamond. Or he could have a draw that just improved (with, say, J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). Possibly he has, say, 98 and planned to checkraise the turn but doesn't want to anymore since you might have a flush. Maybe his hand didn't improve at all and he just thinks that now you might fold. Or, of course, he could have decided to lead instead of checkraising with a turned flush.

Anyway, I wouldn't fold. Raising is an option, but if he's just got a draw and is going to fire again with it anyway on the river if he misses, then I prefer just calling. However, in this case, if you're ahead, there's a good chance he also has a pair, and he might pay off with that.

I would probably just call down, but there are potential advantages to raising. I doubt this guy's folding anything you'd want him to, though, so if you're raising for a free showdown, then I don't like it. I'd only raise against this opponent if I liked my chances of being ahead enough (versus a second-best hand my opponent wanted to show down) that I planned to bet again on the river on a blank. (If I thought he had a draw and would check-fold on the river if he missed, then that would be another reason to raise.)

If you had the ace of diamonds, then your equity versus Villain's range would of course go up, which increases the potential value of a raise. You can't fold to a 3-bet with the nut flush draw, though, so that option is out. So if there's a good chance he has a flush and will 3-bet it, then I wouldn't want to raise with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Anyway, one thing to consider is that quite often a donk-bet indicates that the card that fell improved your opponent's hand in some way. A hand like K2o doesn't seem that likely (but who knows), so the fact that it's a third diamond is, I think, something we're really contending with here.

callmedonnie · #10 08-04-2005, 03:35 PM

With the Ace [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in our hand, you advocate calling the turn with the intention of raising the river. Obviously if you hit a diamond, no problem.

If he donk bets you though, you are going to lead into him agai n I'm assuming from your post? What is the plan on the 3 bet on the river?