Bad beat or bad play?

BZ_Zorro · #1 06-10-2005, 03:30 AM

OK so I butchered this hand but is anyone not losing their stack here?

Normally raise KK preflop, but with maniac to my left I'm trying something different.

Villain is 46/14/3.6 AF (50 hands). Only one showdown, he led out $10 with Q4 on A33r flop, bet $25 on A33Q3 river (lost to Ax).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($97)
CO ($118.8)
Button ($235.2)
SB ($108.95)
BB ($73)
UTG ($85.5)
Hero ($97.9)
MP1 ($160.56)
MP2 ($71.2)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, Hero calls $1, MP1 calls $1, 4 folds, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($4) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $5, SB folds, BB folds, Hero raises to $15, MP1 calls $10.

Turn: ($34) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $10, Hero calls $81.90 (All-In), MP1 calls $71.90.

River: ($197.80) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $197.80

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Kd (three of a kind, kings).
MP1 has Jc Qc (straight, ace high).
Outcome: MP1 wins $197.80. 

I checked the flop and turn to let Villain's aggression play out. He's been pushing the table around a bit so I check-raised to look like I was making a move.

On the flop it seemed he liked his hand so I pushed the turn hoping for a call. In hindside maybe a raise to ~25 would have been better?

What line is best here, from flop onwards?

RiverFenix · #2 06-10-2005, 04:12 AM

You represented 77,1010,10K on the flop and the villian called getting way improper (even with implied) odds to hit his 8outter.
He hit it and then busted you on your correct play. I dont see a way you arent getting it all in here, especially if you hold off betting until the river.

You can say raise pf but hes coming along anyway no matter what you raise if he is indeed a maniac (with his holding anyway)

MaGort · #3 06-10-2005, 04:21 AM

Simply because you knew you were up against a maniac, you played this hand perfectly. the chk/raise on the turn seems correct. I like it even more because he will probably call if he hit the ace, drawing to 0 outs. You got very unlucky and have the right to smash something.

Ghazban · #4 06-10-2005, 10:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You represented 77,1010,10K on the flop and the villian called getting way improper (even with implied) odds to hit his 8outter.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. If hero will stack off when villain hits, folding to the checkraise would be a colossal mistake for villain.

RiverFenix · #5 06-10-2005, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You represented 77,1010,10K on the flop and the villian called getting way improper (even with implied) odds to hit his 8outter.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. If hero will stack off when villain hits, folding to the checkraise would be a colossal mistake for villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if villian had a gutshot straight draw itd still be correct? Just because hero is aggressive and getting the most of it in when he thinks hes ahead (still drawing live too) does not make the villians play correct.

You wouldnt advocate a 2+2 to take that line and make that call on the OESD so dont defend it for villian

Ghazban · #6 06-10-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You represented 77,1010,10K on the flop and the villian called getting way improper (even with implied) odds to hit his 8outter.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. If hero will stack off when villain hits, folding to the checkraise would be a colossal mistake for villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if villian had a gutshot straight draw itd still be correct? Just because hero is aggressive and getting the most of it in when he thinks hes ahead (still drawing live too) does not make the villians play correct.

You wouldnt advocate a 2+2 to take that line and make that call on the OESD so dont defend it for villian

[/ QUOTE ]

I would absolutely call that flop checkraise with QJ in villain's place. With 8 outs, you're ~4.5:1 to hit on the next card. In this hand, villain is getting immediate odds of 2.4:1 so he only needs to get $20 more out of hero ON AVERAGE for the implied odds to be adequate. Hero gave him $80; more than enough. If villain just had a gutshot, he'd be 11:1 to hit and wouldn't be able to make the $90 more he needs to make the play +EV.

dibbs · #7 06-10-2005, 04:19 AM

I'd lead the flop but that's a style thing with me, and you have a better feeling if you could get a big checkraise in so I don't hate it. Problem with raising to a decent amount on the turn too is you are commited, I don't see how you're getting away from this.

So yea, these things happen.

Skjonne · #8 06-10-2005, 06:09 AM

Limping preflop with KK = No good
Checking the flop = OK
Checkraising way too small an amount (giving him 2.4:1) = Not good
Checking the turn = Very no good
Checking raising all-in = Good

Summary: I don't like it at all [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

unlucky513 · #9 06-10-2005, 08:58 AM

poor play.

i think you'll lose your stack here no matter what. a maniac probably isn't gonna fold JQsooooooooted pre flop. bad play and bad beat.

swolfe · #10 06-10-2005, 10:20 AM

check-raising the flop is the worst play possible.

lead the flop. if he's really that aggressive, then he'll raise and you can push and get your money in when you're ahead. you especially need to lead the flop since you didn't raise preflop...your hand is well disguised and you'll get action.