An Odd Flop Situation With KTs

W. Deranged · #1 11-21-2005, 04:44 PM

I'm away from my computer so I'm posting this old-fashioned-like...

MP3 here is, from what I can tell, a very solid tag. I have like 1200 hands on him, and he has pretty numbers: 16/12/3.5 or something like that (though he's down $ in that stretch some some of the numbers may be a bit distorted from running bad...) Anyway, I imagine he's one of you all so if this hand was yours take note...

The BB is relatively unknown to me though to this point his given some vague indications that he's kind of laggy.

Deranged is UTG with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Pre-flop: Deranged limps (?), 4 folds, Solid Tag raises, 2 folds, BB joins the party, Deranged begrudgingly calls and feels angry that he keeps getting isolated with hands like KTs.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

BB checks, Deranged checks, Solid Tag bets, BB raises, whaaaaaaa??????

The flop thought is essentially to go three-handed way ahead/way behind, particularly as I can be pretty confident that once checked to the TAG here is betting every flop with any pair and hands like AT-AQ and so forth. I plan to reevaluate on the turn, probably donking the turn if the BB hangs around (because it means that the Solid Tag is less likely to auto-bet the turn).

Edit: I had a backdoor crub draw if I recall which might be kind of important.

#2 11-21-2005, 04:56 PM

You know, undoubtably, that the table must be loose for a hand like K10s to be good to limp.

You can't just give up yet because the TAG is auto betting so you're basically just playing the BB for now. Call and see what the rest of the flop action is, re-evaluating on the turn, folding if it's two more bets to you again.

W. Deranged · #3 11-21-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, undoubtably, that the table must be loose for a hand like K10s to be good to limp.

You can't just give up yet because the TAG is auto betting so you're basically just playing the BB for now. Call and see what the rest of the flop action is, re-evaluating on the turn, folding if it's two more bets to you again.

[/ QUOTE ]

KTs is the kind of hand I play too loosely...

Here's the things, though. KJs and ATs are both raises for me UTG. KTs begins to be a raise after about 3 folds. So how bad can limping UTG with KTs really be? Then again, K9s and KTo are clear folds UTG. So who knows? Does it even matter. (I think the answer is kind of "no"...)

pauliewalnuts · #4 11-21-2005, 05:03 PM

WD,

Do you also always open limp QJs and JTs up front? That is usually my defualt play, because they seem like too good of hands to throw away, although it is unpleaseant to get isolated and wind up HU OOP.

#5 11-21-2005, 06:35 PM

of course it matters. even if it's not a big decision, it's still a -EV decision. i'm pretty sure that if you looked into the pt-stats for the hand, you'd find a negative winrate. actually, i'd suspect that the same goes for KJ and hands like that too. isn't this just basic stuff? this hand is like, straight out of the "hand domination, reverse implied odds etc"-chapter of whatever hold 'em book.

bobhalford · #6 11-21-2005, 06:47 PM

I fold this preflop just because it's a weak hand and you are out of position for the whole hand which makes it difficult to know when you are ahead or behind. When you are ahead, you don't make as much money as you would in better position.

You might think about donkbetting the flop, calling the raise from the TAG and then bet/folding the turn if it's a non-K/T or non-club.

hobbsmann · #7 11-21-2005, 04:57 PM

I'm really torn on this one. Just talking about the flop I really think a decent argument can be made for all 3 options. I kind of think the straight forward 3-bet might be the best option as bb is kind of LAGGY so your K has a good chance of beating him and given that TAG will auto-bet all flops there is a good chance we are ahead.

The idea behind cold calling here is that you are still essentially wa/wb with TAG and given both the incredible dryness of the flop and BB being a LAG, not pushing out the TAG when he has a hand with 2-5 outs is not a huge priority. Furthermore, the times he 3-bets the flop we can easily check/fold the turn UI as we will never be ahead when that happens.

Actually, I think folding sucks here so yeah call or raise, although I'm unsure which I like better.

toss · #8 11-21-2005, 05:03 PM

I limp KTs UTG when 2 or 3 will limp along with me. Otherwise I just muck. Maybe raise if the table is weak tight.

The 3-best line I can think of is coldcalling and raising any turn, 3-betting the flop, or simply folding. I think I like waiting for the turn better since we extract more value and we're not really worried about MP3 outdrawing us.

RyGreen18 · #9 11-21-2005, 05:05 PM

KTs UTG at full ring is a hard hand to play, im folding this a lot of the time at aggressive tables and trying to limp in if a lot of my opponents are loose and passive. were you planning to c/r the flop? what hands is this possibly LAGish BB c/ring on this dry board? hard to narrow down exactly what made hand he has. 3betting to get HU seems like an option, CCing 2 has merit too. i'm 3betting most of the time here, even if the read on BB is iffy, it makes it clearer where you stand and gives the solid TAG a chance to fold AQ-AT and lower PP's. if the TAG or the BB cap, then you know you probably have 6.5 outs at best and can go from there on the turn...

private joker · #10 11-21-2005, 05:06 PM

I don't mind the preflop limp.

On the flop, I don't see a lot of value in a 3-bet. The TAG will never fold a better hand (would he fold KJ to a check/3-bet? I doubt it), and any hand he does fold has at most 3 outs against you (Ax). Flops don't get any dryer than this; no reasonable draws exist. If you cold-call, TAG will be getting 11:1 to call -- not enough for a 3-outer.

So is BB check-raising with a weak K? Possibly. I'd cold-call here. If TAG 3-bets, then you're in big trouble, as he wouldn't do it with QQ/JJ, so you're dominated by AK/AA/KQ almost all the time. Pray he has AA and turn a K or T. If TAG just calls, then raise a non-Broadway turn. If BB keeps going after you, dump it. If he calls (and TAG will fold unless he's beating you), then take a free showdown.

That's my line, anyway. I'm sure everyone will hate it.