tough spot with Kings...

damn_river · #1 07-08-2005, 04:05 AM

5 players, $2.5/$5, semi-loose agressive game.

i have kk in sb with about $850. button (~$600) has raised a limper to $20. also, button is probably one of the tighter players at the table. i reraise to $30. limper folds, and button reraises me to $200. Is it time to lay down the kings? between folding, calling, and reraising what are my best options?

dR

JKratzer · #2 07-08-2005, 04:27 AM

It sounds like you raised the button $10 more, which isn't legal and a terrible raise anyway. Raise it to something like $70 or $80. If you do that and he comes back over the top then I would lay it down to a really tight player. With your weird raise I would have trouble putting him on only aces.

The responses you're going to get will say this is player dependent, which it is. You say he's tight, if he's so tight that he won't put in the third raise w/o the nuts then fold. Otherwise push. Calling is your last option.

JKratzer

Murderous · #3 07-08-2005, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i have kk in sb with about $850. button (~$600) has raised a limper to $20. also, button is probably one of the tighter players at the table. i reraise to $30.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the point of reraising $10 more dollars here? That's like shooting yourself in the foot (or wallet for that matter).

His reraise could mean so many things depending on his read on you. If you are going to reraise here I would up it to ~$75 and considering folding to resistance from a really tight player.

I would probably just call here and check-raise the flop.

Regarding your question of whether or not it is "time to lay down the kings", I would consider calling the three bet...only because of the size of your raise. The are a lot of holdings that you beat at this point and he might be protecting QQ, JJ...etc.

IMO, $200 seems a bit excessive for AA considering you're f'd up reraise and the fact that short-handed games tend to play more aggressive.

At this point, how you finish the hand is read dependent and you mis-played it from the start. The conservative and most-likely correct option would be to fold given your particular read on your opponent.

Remember, you raise not only to get more money in the pot but also to gauge where your hand stands in relation to your opponents'.

arod15 · #4 07-08-2005, 03:20 PM

Nope no getting away from that move right no in. He could do that with AK as well as KK or QQ he doesnt necasarily have AK. Now way you dont see a flop at least. With no ace on the flop you have move in no question. And anyone who tells you otherwise is lying

arod15 · #5 07-08-2005, 03:22 PM

Even if a rock was sitting there. I mean a guy so tight he turned into a rock and no longer loooks like a human you still dont fold. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1
Click that link Diablo and Ray Zee both comment on this hand you have to push its painful but there is no getting away....

arod15 · #6 07-08-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like you raised the button $10 more, which isn't legal and a terrible raise anyway. Raise it to something like $70 or $80. If you do that and he comes back over the top then I would lay it down to a really tight player. With your weird raise I would have trouble putting him on only aces.

The responses you're going to get will say this is player dependent, which it is. You say he's tight, if he's so tight that he won't put in the third raise w/o the nuts then fold. Otherwise push. Calling is your last option.

JKratzer

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you really?

iceman5 · #7 07-08-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if a rock was sitting there. I mean a guy so tight he turned into a rock and no longer loooks like a human you still dont fold. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1
Click that link Diablo and Ray Zee both comment on this hand you have to push its painful but there is no getting away....

[/ QUOTE ]

I make a killing off people who think they just CANT lay down KK. If the guy is a super rock, you need to fold.

When I make a healthy raise with AA and get raised, I just push in because the guy will have KK at least 75% of the time and he will call about 95% of the time.

Having said that, your tiny reraise muddied up the whole hand so theresno way of knowing what the guy has.

arod15 · #8 07-08-2005, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if a rock was sitting there. I mean a guy so tight he turned into a rock and no longer loooks like a human you still dont fold. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1
Click that link Diablo and Ray Zee both comment on this hand you have to push its painful but there is no getting away....

[/ QUOTE ]

I make a killing off people who think they just CANT lay down KK. If the guy is a super rock, you need to fold.

When I make a healthy raise with AA and get raised, I just push in because the guy will have KK at least 75% of the time and he will call about 95% of the time.

Having said that, your tiny reraise muddied up the whole hand so theresno way of knowing what the guy has.

[/ QUOTE ]
your prob right we should listen to you over diablo and Ray zee.....

flawless_victory · #9 07-08-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if a rock was sitting there. I mean a guy so tight he turned into a rock and no longer loooks like a human you still dont fold. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1
Click that link Diablo and Ray Zee both comment on this hand you have to push its painful but there is no getting away....

[/ QUOTE ]

I make a killing off people who think they just CANT lay down KK. If the guy is a super rock, you need to fold.

When I make a healthy raise with AA and get raised, I just push in because the guy will have KK at least 75% of the time and he will call about 95% of the time.

Having said that, your tiny reraise muddied up the whole hand so theresno way of knowing what the guy has.

[/ QUOTE ]
your prob right we should listen to you over diablo and Ray zee.....

[/ QUOTE ]arod, hi.
iceman is right. period. ray zee was wrong in that thread. period.

fimbulwinter · #10 07-08-2005, 10:10 PM

there are massive differences between these two hands. in the hand diablo posted, given the action and game in which he was playing, he/zee was right 100%.

the way this hand was played is a donkfest, as for iceman's comment, he must run white hot if he' "making a killing" getting AA against KK cos it only happens about 1/25 times I hold AA, or maybe 1/(220*25) = 1/5500 hands. if you get 100BB in EV (say the average stack you get is ~120 BB or whatever) that's a mere 100/5500 = 1.8 BB/100 he can gain/lose by being flawless in his AAvsKK play. and i guarantee you his actual earn from being such a master of AAvsKK is far far lower, probably even to the point of -EV.

there's a reason ray zee has books with his name on the cover
there's a reason diablo is usually the final word in MH
it's cos they're most often right. go do the math in the thread you're referencing and you'll realize that you're no zee or diablo.

fim