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#22
07-09-2005, 06:39 AM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
1. you discussed none of what i said
- i don't care about your winrate, i care about your constant anxiousness to mention it, which i sadly ironic in reading your response. do you understand the difference? re-read what i said, or better yet continue interpreting the posts of others however you desire. - show me that math from diablo's hand. go do it. i have done it, have you? also, read the zee response again. there is clearly no way you are correct here, but it really doesn't matter what i say, because your opinion is of no concern to me. 2. [ QUOTE ] And dont lump me in with Richie Rich. Im nothing like him. Find one post of mine where you think Ive given horrible advice. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I have alot to learn about pushing big draws and things like that so i dont know why you think that I think Im a guru. [/ QUOTE ] this was exactly what i was going to mention. i have seen you give crappy advice on how to play strong, non-made hands, but that's beside the point. I obviously don't think you are a poker guru. i am saying that you are doing others a disservice in presenting yourself as such. you know what i'm talking about if you want me to honestly call you out on bad advice, this is terrible. just today i was thinking to myself how i need to be a nicer poster like the staples of MH. geuss i messed that one up. I apologize for the tone. my entire beef can pretty much be summarized with this (from your site): The Iceman has played poker extensively while in the army and took up online poker about 4 years ago. He has worked his way up the poker food chain and now plays as high as $5/$10 NL with a $1000 buy in. He considers himself a semi-pro player which by his definition means that he makes significantly more money playing poker than he does at his real job and that he could play poker for living if he ever needed or wanted to. Iceman5 currently works as police detective in a major US city and has been in more than his share of scrapes. He is able to use his life experiences and ability to read people at the poker table to his best advantage. Contrary to popular belief, iceman5's nickname is not related to the movie Top Gun. The nickname "ice cream man" was given to him by a group of thugs he was constantly "dealing with" on his beat years ago and he shortened it to iceman when he first came on the internet back around 1992. who the heck says that? who allows that to be said about him? who cares how high you've played? you changed your own nickname from "ice cream man" to "iceman"? who gives themselves a nickname? who, besides DS, says "I could do this hard thing if i chose to, but i choose to not do it." whatever, i'm done here. I can't stand the fact that i'm ragging on a guy who served in the army and has a kid. hope you stay safe WRT being a cop. im out. fim 
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#23
07-09-2005, 10:53 AM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
Feel free to ignore me from now and and I think we'll get among just fine.
Im not always anxious to mention my win rate. When I first started playing, I was doing fairly well, but really didnt know how I compared to everyone else and if I was doing good, bad or lousy so I was always asking about win rates. Now I have enough experience to know where my win rate stacks up against everyone else so when people ask those same questions, I answer them. If someone like you questions my advice, I might mention my win rate to show that whatever it is Im doing does work. Im not saying Im the winningest player in the world, but Im doing better than most in my games and you know it. The article that you mentioned being horrible advise gives several examples of check raises that I use all the time. They work so they cant be horrible at least not in the games I play. Maybe they dont work in your games, I dont know. Maybe you play more LAGGY than I do, so they dont work for you, I dont know. I know they work for me. I read the entire Diablo thread and If I remember correctly the math said that the guy needed to have something less than AA about 70-75% of the time for his push to be at least nuetral EV. Theres no way in hell they guy has AA less than 90% of the time after the way the action went. Diabblo knew full well that the guy had AA but decided to pay him off and he said as much. Ive been wrong alot of times, but Im not wrong in that hand. Even if I am, SO WHAT? Theres alot of different playing styles that will get the money. I fold alot of hands that most people wont but yet Im still able to win. My style works for me. I read alot of advice given here and cringe because it wont work in the games I play and I know it because Ive tried alot of it. It probably does work in higher stakes games, I dont know. For example, Diablo refered to his open raise to $150 as "not a real raise". He called it "an open". OK, fine. I learned something about high stakes games. That advice would get you killed in the $1/$2 Prima game. His advice was given in the context of his high stakes game so Im sure its good advice. Most of my advice is given in the context of MY games and it does work. Its been working for years so I feel fine giving it out. And I really would like to learn to play big draws better so if you can point be to any good threads, fell free. I was given that nickname by some drug dealers and when I first got on the internet and needed a nickname I shortened it. SO FRIGGIN WHAT? What the hell does your stupid ass nickname mean. Who cares? Youre being ridiculous. Ive said numerous times that my website caters towards beginning players not experts such as yourself. So I put up a bio on myself (which wasnt even my idea) to tell everyone about myself. Alot of new players start playing in very similar fashions to how I did, so they can relate to my story. Youre a petty little person, and likewise, Im done with you.
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#24
07-09-2005, 05:20 PM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to ignore me from now and and I think we'll get among just fine. [/ QUOTE ] That's the first good idea i've heard out of you. You're now on my ignore list. [ QUOTE ] Im not always anxious to mention my win rate. When I first started playing, I was doing fairly well, but really didnt know how I compared to everyone else and if I was doing good, bad or lousy so I was always asking about win rates. Now I have enough experience to know where my win rate stacks up against everyone else so when people ask those same questions, I answer them. [/ QUOTE ] this still does nothing to address my complaint, in fact it makes my point for me. I dont know if you're choosing to miss the point or if ou genuinely lack the capacity to do so. [ QUOTE ] If someone like you questions my advice, I might mention my win rate to show that whatever it is Im doing does work. Im not saying Im the winningest player in the world, but Im doing better than most in my games and you know it. [/ QUOTE ] your winrate is more dependant on game selection than anything else. I can give a 14 year old a starting hands chart and have him beating the vast majority of players. 'm not questioning the fact that you are a winner, I am questioning the fact that you are adequately qualified put up a site for beginners. judging from your posts and especially your articles, I don't think this is the case. [ QUOTE ] The article that you mentioned being horrible advise gives several examples of check raises that I use all the time. They work so they cant be horrible at least not in the games I play. Maybe they dont work in your games, I dont know. Maybe you play more LAGGY than I do, so they dont work for you, I dont know. I know they work for me. [/ QUOTE ] "these are the correct plays because i make them all the time and they work for me" does not make them right. see below for another example. [ QUOTE ] I read the entire Diablo thread and If I remember correctly the math said that the guy needed to have something less than AA about 70-75% of the time for his push to be at least nuetral EV. Theres no way in hell they guy has AA less than 90% of the time after the way the action went. Diabblo knew full well that the guy had AA but decided to pay him off and he said as much. [/ QUOTE ] do i need to do the math for you? I'm genuinely beginning to wonder whether or not you're adequately intelligent to understand the math i'm asking you to do. here, let me do it for you: Let say that (gasp) ray zee is right and that diablow will see Ax and PP's a good percentage of the time here, so he has ~75% equity when he's ahead. when he's up against aces, he has ~20%. We must assume that all pushes will be called. right now diablo has $4K to play a $11K pot. so he needs 4/11 pot equity to make this profitable. PE = .75(x) + .20(1-x) = 4/11 x = 29% so the guy only needs to NOT have AA 29% of the time to make this call profitable. whatever math you did to come to this terribly, awfully wrong conclusion (can you admit you are wrong here?, I doubt it): [ QUOTE ] the math said that the guy needed to have something less than AA about 70-75% of the time for his push to be at least nuetral EV. [/ QUOTE ] given zee's input, as well as diablo's I think this is a perfectly reasonable assumption in the game they described. [ QUOTE ] Ive been wrong alot of times, but Im not wrong in that hand. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Even if I am, SO WHAT? [/ QUOTE ] read these two sentences aloud to yourself. you wrote them, so read them. do you see? [ QUOTE ] Theres alot of different playing styles that will get the money. I fold alot of hands that most people wont but yet Im still able to win. My style works for me. I read alot of advice given here and cringe because it wont work in the games I play and I know it because Ive tried alot of it. It probably does work in higher stakes games, I dont know. For example, Diablo refered to his open raise to $150 as "not a real raise". He called it "an open". OK, fine. I learned something about high stakes games. That advice would get you killed in the $1/$2 Prima game. His advice was given in the context of his high stakes game so Im sure its good advice. Most of my advice is given in the context of MY games and it does work. Its been working for years so I feel fine giving it out. [/ QUOTE ] multiculturalist arguments ("I'm ok, you're ok") are typically given as a last resort/justification for a viewpoint that has no legs left on which to stand. I doubt you'll understand the above either, but I'll throw it out there for the others who might read this. [ QUOTE ] And I really would like to learn to play big draws better so if you can point be to any good threads, fell free. [/ QUOTE ] you sit here and tell me to ignore you and that you're done with me, and then you ask for threadlinks? are you bipolar? i'd really love to meet you in real life, because i'm not sure if im dealing with someone lacking in intelligence or sanity. I'd be interesting to find out. [ QUOTE ] I was given that nickname by some drug dealers and when I first got on the internet and needed a nickname I shortened it. SO FRIGGIN WHAT? What the hell does your stupid ass nickname mean. Who cares? Youre being ridiculous. [/ QUOTE ] you were given the douhebag nickname "ICE CREAM MAN" by drug dealers. even narcotics felons knew you were lame. YOU then changed it to "iceman" which is a lame person's transparent attempt to look cool. My nick is a total geeky throwback to norse mythology. fimbulwinter is three years of cold and famine. I chose mine because I am a big norwegian dude. nobody knows what it means, and nobody cares. [ QUOTE ] Ive said numerous times that my website caters towards beginning players not experts such as yourself. So I put up a bio on myself (which wasnt even my idea) to tell everyone about myself. Alot of new players start playing in very similar fashions to how I did, so they can relate to my story. [/ QUOTE ] this makes it worse, not better. here's a question: who can better filter bad advice: good players or bad players? [ QUOTE ] Youre a petty little person, and likewise, Im done with you. [/ QUOTE ] the second good thing you've said in this thread. you would be commended if it wasn't for the fact that you just PM'd me a note of a completely different tone. I seriously think you mut be bipolar, but i'll respond to it here so that everyone can see: [ QUOTE ] Hey there. I really would like to know why you have such a problem with me. That web site is making me alot of money. Its not geared towards players who are already very good like most people here. Its geared towards beginners who are breaking into poker. The advice I give out there is based on the things that Ive learned since starting from scatch in the $5NL games and working my way up. Ive played close to a million hands so I know what Im doing works. Is it the ultimum strategy? Squeezing the highest EV out of every play? Probably not. If anything, Im probably a little weak tight. I dont push slight edges because I dont like high variance. I guess my bio bugs you because it sounds like Im bragging about myself? Its just like a resume. You have to brag in a resume and exude confidence. My website is growing like crazy. We have about 80 new members every month so obviously alot of people like the place. Like I said, its not geared to experienced players like yourself. I post and read 2+2 because I want to improve. When I was in the Army I played alot of raquetball. I was pretty good but not great. there was a guy at my base who was the 3rd rakned player in Europe. I played him everyday for a couple weeks and he beat the crap out of me but after those weeks, there was nobody else at my base who get near beating me. Thats why I post here...to get better. In no way do I think Im a poker guru, but theres no doubt in my mind Im pretty damned good. I dont understand why thats such a problem. Do I come off as arrogant in my posts? Im serious about this. I really think youre taking me all wrong. [/ QUOTE ] since this will be the last thing i hear out of you, let me answer your points publicly: [ QUOTE ] Hey there. I really would like to know why you have such a problem with me. [/ QUOTE ] As i said before, i dont have a problem with you. Actually i think you do a lot of generally respectable things (serve in the army, be a cop, be a dad). the reason i say generally respectable is that very often those positions with require little/no entry requirements (cop, army, dad) and possess a lot of power get abused by people with delusions of grandeur. I'm afraid you may be one of them. [ QUOTE ] That web site is making me alot of money. [/ QUOTE ] this point hurts your argument, i don;t know why you'd include it [ QUOTE ] Its not geared towards players who are already very good like most people here. Its geared towards beginners who are breaking into poker. The advice I give out there is based on the things that Ive learned since starting from scatch in the $5NL games and working my way up. Ive played close to a million hands so I know what Im doing works. [/ QUOTE ] again, your argument is not valid. an analogy is as follows: "I had cancer, then i ate bark. now when i go to my doctor, he tells me i don't have cancer, therefore people should chew bark to rid themselves of cancer. hey, it works for me, that's all i'm saying." [ QUOTE ] Is it the ultimum strategy? Squeezing the highest EV out of every play? Probably not. If anything, Im probably a little weak tight. I dont push slight edges because I dont like high variance. [/ QUOTE ] this statement is completely fair and accurate [ QUOTE ] I guess my bio bugs you because it sounds like Im bragging about myself? Its just like a resume. You have to brag in a resume and exude confidence. My website is growing like crazy. We have about 80 new members every month so obviously alot of people like the place. Like I said, its not geared to experienced players like yourself. [/ QUOTE ] where to even begin with this one... your bio is a resume for whom? are you trying to impress new players? isn't your super-cool nickname enough? moreover, if anyone ever brough a resume like that to a job interview, they'd be lauged at. you never say in a resume "I could have been valedictorian of my HS class if i wanted to" you say "I was valedictorian" or you don't if you weren't. even david fricking sklansky gets crapped on for saying things like "i could have won a nobel prize in physics if i wanted to" and he's a certifiable genius. [ QUOTE ] I post and read 2+2 because I want to improve. [/ QUOTE ] I think we all do. [ QUOTE ] When I was in the Army I played alot of raquetball. [/ QUOTE ] This does not surprise me at all [ QUOTE ] I was pretty good but not great. there was a guy at my base who was the 3rd rakned player in Europe. I played him everyday for a couple weeks and he beat the crap out of me but after those weeks, there was nobody else at my base who get near beating me. Thats why I post here...to get better. In no way do I think Im a poker guru, but theres no doubt in my mind Im pretty damned good. [/ QUOTE ] does this small amount of experience qualify you to promote yourself as a paid raquetball instructor? bear in mind you're doing the same thing as a poker player... [ QUOTE ] I dont understand why thats such a problem. Do I come off as arrogant in my posts? [/ QUOTE ] arrogant, insolent, boorish all come to mind. but sure, arrogant works. [ QUOTE ] Im serious about this. I really think youre taking me all wrong. [/ QUOTE ] I certainly dont. I think I'm dead on. Every thing i read of yours reinforces every point i've made thus far. again, i won't be able to see any responses you make to this, so feel free to cuss a blue streak. I hope you at least learn something from all of this, but, given past performance, i seriously doubt that you will
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#27
07-09-2005, 07:13 PM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
[ QUOTE ]
I think fim handled himself awesomely in this thread. He avoided insults unlike most posters while presenting his argument/issue very well. Kudos to you. [/ QUOTE ] He called my arrogant, insolent, boorish and implied several times that Im of below avg intelligence. And all why? I could debate everyone of his statements but I wont other than the main one about the KK hand. Everyone agrees, including this fool, that if the guy doesn have AA more than 29% of the time a push is correct. The guy is going to have AA in that spot about 99% of the time. Everyone who read that thread knows thats a fact. What kind of an immature person would get a private message from me with a very apologetic tone (at least thats how I mean it) and post it in public? Like I said hes a joke and hes very immature.
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#28
07-09-2005, 09:05 PM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
Maybe you guys can help a begginer out...I would like to know about ray zee and diablo since so many people hold them in high regard. Do they have a web site or are they just posters?
like i said i'm new to poker...(less than 2 months all at the casino) (don't like online)..I laid down KK once pre-flop (in the face of a $150 raise). it was a $1/$2 NL game at the gold strike in tunica. I've seen some $2000 pots there by the way, which i find interesting. Anyway about folding the pocket KK. In a jesture of sportsmanship or whatever the guy flip over his pocket cards and they were AA. My next question is was i right or wrong to lay down the KK. To me I was right? Thanks for helping a humble beginner.
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#29
07-09-2005, 09:13 PM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
Laying down KK preflop, is something you will rarely want to do.
The hand that started this whole thing was one of those hands where I think it was an easy fold. Alot of people thought he should push in anyway even though they admitted they were very sure the guy had AA, which is the part that I dont agree with. Diablo and Ray Zee are two of the most respected posters here. I dont know much about Ray. he doesnt seem to post much in the months Ive been here but by reputation, I assume he knows his stuff. Diablo is a high stakes player who I often disagree with, but I think its because hes thinking at a level that I dont understand yet (not because hes wrong), although I'll go to my grave believing he was wrong in the AA vs KK hand thats started this argument. And I think that he thinks it was a mistake also.
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#30
07-09-2005, 10:46 PM
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Re: tough spot with Kings...
Ask yourself these questions: what hand range does my opponent assign me after I reraise him preflop? What is his hand range after he 3bets my reraise to $200 (this will depend on the answer to the foregoing question assuming you're playing a competent opponent)? Assuming his hand range is such that folding isn't an option (i.e. continuing with the hand doesn't have a negative expectation given his probable hand range, e.g. HE ALWAYS HAS AA) what will your opponent do w/his various holdings if you reraise all-in? If you call? Basically, how can you extract the most value from his range of hands?
This hand doesn't involve any NL-specific concepts that need elucidating. It's just hand range assignment and elementary reasoning/math. The rest of this thread is pretty retarded. You all make money? Seriously?
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