A couple of Razz hands

[BadPenguin]

I just started playing Razz a few weeks ago. I've been doing reasonably well at the very low limit games and small tournaments on FullTilt but I know I'm making a fair number of bad plays.

These are three hands that I'm not sure I played very well from a $20+2 tournament this morning. Comments on any aspects of them would be welcome.

(I apologize for the raw hand histories - the stud converter doesn't seem to understand FullTilt's format.)

HAND 1

FullTiltPoker Game #271131608: $20 + $2 Tournament (1688626), Table 2 - 50/100 Ante 10 - Limit Razz - 9:51:25 ET - 2005/10/30
Seat 1: Ferret_Jax (1,505)
Seat 2: Hot424 (1,200)
Seat 3: hunt1897 (1,510)
Seat 4: Firedg33 (1,880)
Seat 5: PenguinEgg (1,405)
Ferret_Jax antes 10
Hot424 antes 10
hunt1897 antes 10
Firedg33 antes 10
PenguinEgg antes 10
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Ferret_Jax [Jd]
Dealt to Hot424 [Jh]
Dealt to hunt1897 [5h]
Dealt to Firedg33 [8d]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2h Ad] [8h]
Hot424 is high with [Jh]
Hot424 brings in for 15
hunt1897 completes it to 50
Firedg33 folds
PenguinEgg calls 50
Ferret_Jax folds
Hot424 folds
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to hunt1897 [5h] [6h]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2h Ad 8h] [As]
hunt1897 bets 50
PenguinEgg folds
Uncalled bet of 50 returned to hunt1897
hunt1897 mucks
hunt1897 wins the pot (165)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 165 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Ferret_Jax folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: Hot424 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: hunt1897 collected (165), mucked
Seat 4: Firedg33 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: PenguinEgg folded on 4th St.


HAND 2

FullTiltPoker Game #271150049: $20 + $2 Tournament (1688626), Table 1 - 80/160 Ante 15 - Limit Razz - 10:20:12 ET - 2005/10/30
Seat 1: U_owe_Me (2,305)
Seat 3: bigboone (588)
Seat 4: rob gor (3,477)
Seat 5: TheOrginalLP (2,982)
Seat 7: PenguinEgg (1,621)
Seat 8: Firedg33 (2,515), is sitting out
U_owe_Me antes 15
bigboone antes 15
rob gor antes 15
TheOrginalLP antes 15
PenguinEgg antes 15
Firedg33 antes 15
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to U_owe_Me [8h]
Dealt to bigboone [8d]
Dealt to rob gor [3s]
Dealt to TheOrginalLP [9c]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2s 4h] [Jd]
Dealt to Firedg33 [5d]
PenguinEgg is high with [Jd]
PenguinEgg brings in for 25
Firedg33 folds
U_owe_Me folds
bigboone folds
rob gor completes it to 80
TheOrginalLP folds
PenguinEgg calls 55
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to rob gor [3s] [3c]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2s 4h Jd] [Th]
PenguinEgg checks
rob gor bets 80
PenguinEgg calls 80
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to rob gor [3s 3c] [Kc]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2s 4h Jd Th] [Qh]
PenguinEgg checks
rob gor checks
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to rob gor [3s 3c Kc] [Jc]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2s 4h Jd Th Qh] [Ah]
PenguinEgg bets 160
rob gor calls 160
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to PenguinEgg [2s 4h Jd Th Qh Ah] [6d]
PenguinEgg checks
rob gor checks

Results in white below:
<font color="white">
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PenguinEgg shows [6d 4h Jd Th Qh Ah 2s] (T,6,4,2,A)
rob gor mucks
PenguinEgg wins the pot (730) with T,6,4,2,A
The limits are now 100/200 with an ante of 15
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 730 | Rake 0
Seat 1: U_owe_Me folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: bigboone folded on 3rd St.
Seat 4: rob gor mucked [7s 6h 3s 3c Kc Jc 4s] - J,7,6,4,3
Seat 5: TheOrginalLP folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: PenguinEgg showed [6d 4h Jd Th Qh Ah 2s] and won (730) with T,6,4,2,A
Seat 8: Firedg33 folded on 3rd St.

</font>

HAND 3

(villain below has seemed pretty loose, calling on 3rd and 4th with some marginal hands)

FullTiltPoker Game #271144184: $20 + $2 Tournament (1688626), Table 1 - 80/160 Ante 15 - Limit Razz - 10:11:43 ET - 2005/10/30
Seat 1: U_owe_Me (1,372)
Seat 2: -CBuk- (1,198)
Seat 3: bigboone (373)
Seat 4: rob gor (2,982)
Seat 5: TheOrginalLP (2,397)
Seat 7: PenguinEgg (2,306)
Seat 8: Firedg33 (2,860)
U_owe_Me antes 15
-CBuk- antes 15
bigboone antes 15
rob gor antes 15
TheOrginalLP antes 15
PenguinEgg antes 15
Firedg33 antes 15
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to U_owe_Me [5s]
Dealt to -CBuk- [Qh]
Dealt to bigboone [Qc]
Dealt to rob gor [8c]
Dealt to TheOrginalLP [8h]
Dealt to PenguinEgg [As 2c] [3h]
Dealt to Firedg33 [4s]
-CBuk- is high with [Qh]
-CBuk- brings in for 25
bigboone folds
rob gor folds
TheOrginalLP folds
PenguinEgg completes it to 80
Firedg33 calls 80
U_owe_Me folds
-CBuk- folds
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to PenguinEgg [As 2c 3h] [4h]
Dealt to Firedg33 [4s] [9d]
PenguinEgg bets 80
Firedg33 calls 80
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to PenguinEgg [As 2c 3h 4h] [8s]
Dealt to Firedg33 [4s 9d] [Jd]
PenguinEgg checks
Firedg33 checks
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to PenguinEgg [As 2c 3h 4h 8s] [2h]
Dealt to Firedg33 [4s 9d Jd] [3c]
PenguinEgg bets 160
Firedg33 calls 160
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to PenguinEgg [As 2c 3h 4h 8s 2h] [Qs]
PenguinEgg bets 160
Firedg33 calls 160

Results in white below:
<font color="white">
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PenguinEgg shows [Qs 2c 3h 4h 8s 2h As] (8,4,3,2,A)
Firedg33 mucks
PenguinEgg wins the pot (1,090) with 8,4,3,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,090 | Rake 0
Seat 1: U_owe_Me folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: -CBuk- folded on 3rd St.
Seat 3: bigboone folded on 3rd St.
Seat 4: rob gor folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: TheOrginalLP folded on 3rd St.
Seat 7: PenguinEgg showed [Qs 2c 3h 4h 8s 2h As] and won (1,090) with 8,4,3,2,A
Seat 8: Firedg33 mucked [6c 4d 4s 9d Jd 3c 2s] - 9,6,4,3,2
</font>

[mscags]

1st Hand: Seems fine. I fold this on fourth like you did.
2nd Hand: Fold when he completes it on you on third, you don't have a good hand. Since you made it to the river, it is an easy bet since you have him board locked for low. Maybe he will pay it off. Who knows.
3rd Hand: Why did you check fifth? I mean I guess at that time it is impossible that he can win, but I would still bet and see if you can rope him along. It looks like the check might have gotten you an extra BB though.

[BadPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
1st Hand: Seems fine. I fold this on fourth like you did.
2nd Hand: Fold when he completes it on you on third, you don't have a good hand. Since you made it to the river, it is an easy bet since you have him board locked for low. Maybe he will pay it off. Who knows.
3rd Hand: Why did you check fifth? I mean I guess at that time it is impossible that he can win, but I would still bet and see if you can rope him along. It looks like the check might have gotten you an extra BB though.

[/ QUOTE ]

On hand 2 I'm sure you're right that I should just have folded on 3rd - I think at that point I'd had several bring-ins in a row and was getting tired of folding them all. I knew I had a lock at the end - I guess at the time I thought I'd have a better chance of picking up an extra bet by giving him a chance to bluff at it (maybe he'd think I only hada queen-low and wouldn't call him). In hindsight a bet probably would have been better - he might very well have called with his jack-low given the lousy board I showed.

On hand 3 I checked 5th because I figured to have close to a lock, as you say, and was afraid he'd fold after catching the jack. I hoped he'd catch enough on 6th to want to stay in.

I also wonder about the bet on 7th in this hand - is the chance that he'll call with a 9 against my showing 3,4,8,2 worth the (admittedly small) risk of his having drawn out on the end? Does his call on the end make sense considering what I'm showing?

[MikeBandy]

Hand 2. I believe calling on third was correct. Calling would have been horrendous if you weren’t the bring-in, or if TheOriginalLP hadn’t folded. In the latter case, you’d have had to outdraw not one, but two opponents. Another consideration is that you may have had the best hand. Rob Gor completed the bet from a steal position – there were no low cards behind him.

On the end, you could have bet or checked with the intention of raising. I’d normally bet, but occasionally play it as you did. I’m very interested in seeing what others think about this.

My little granddaughter requires my attention, but I’ll post more later.

[MikeBandy]

Hand 1. I’d have played it as you did. In other circumstances, I can play aggressively after pairing a hole card.

Hand 3. Rather than check on fifth street, I’d have been satisfied with taking the pot right there. Why give him a small chance to outdraw you? I’d have bet on the river as you did. In his place, I’d absolutely have made a crying call.

[2+2 wannabe]

I don't really like the check on 5th in hand #2 - you're ahead and give him a free card with a king and open pair when you will probably win the pot with a bet there

edit: I don't get the 7th check in hand 2 either - unless I'm blind you have the best hand. are you going for a c/r here?

[Andy B]

I don't play this game, but here it goes.

First hand, I think the call on third is OK, but I really don't know. Folding fourth is mandatory, though. You're probably behind, and may be way behind.

Second hand, I think third is a fold. You have a Jack showing, which will make it hard for you to represent a strong hand later. I might be wrong on this, though. I can't find my copy of Sklansky on Poker at the moment.

I think that if you can't bet fourth, you should have folded on third. If the other guy started with a real hand, he's still the favorite. If he was raising light, though, you've got an edge. I'd bet here, but I don't think checking is the end of the world.

By fifth, your advantage has become significant, but your hand isn't so strong that you should be giving out free cards. Bet your damned hand already. Definitely bet sixth and seventh as well. Why check the river? You can't be beaten. You don't think he's going to bet for you, do you?

Third hand, I'd bet fifth. He's probably calling anyway, and I don't think that you want to give out any free cards with an Eight.

[timprov]

Hand 1 is standard.

Hand 2: I'm fine with defending the bringin. Bet fifth and pick up the pot. You're decently ahead but you can be drawn out on pretty easily here, why risk it? Having gotten to the end, bet your lock.

Hand 3: You're using a sixth concept on fifth, and I'm not sure what I think of that. It looks very strange when you bet sixth after pairing. I think you ought to go ahead and bet your hand.

My opinion is that Razz posts should be at least crossposted in OP.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: I'm fine with defending the bringin. Bet fifth and pick up the pot. You're decently ahead but you can be drawn out on pretty easily here, why risk it? Having gotten to the end, bet your lock.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOO HOO! my first Razz strategy post has a mod agree with it! WSOP here I come

[BadPenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like the check on 5th in hand #2 - you're ahead and give him a free card with a king and open pair when you will probably win the pot with a bet there

edit: I don't get the 7th check in hand 2 either - unless I'm blind you have the best hand. are you going for a c/r here?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time I didn't think he was likely to call, and that I'd do better to check and hope perhaps he'd bluff at it. But looking at it again that seems pretty unlikely - I should have bet and hoped that he made a jack and would call, thinking I might have a J-T or worse.