QJs

mojobluesman · #1 10-09-2005, 04:18 PM

Am I supposed to raise the flop to protect my pair of Js?

Would it be better to call and try to get 2 additional callers (I have a flush draw also and the odds would be good if I could get both of them) and raise on the turn if I get the flush or a safe card comes?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

milesdyson · #2 10-09-2005, 04:22 PM

i would have raised preflop. the hand would have been different after that. there's a balance between "oh crap the pot is big, i want to win it" and "i have such a big hand, i don't want to lose customers."

in this hand, you usually have the best hand and the best draw on the flop, and callers behind you will be making a mistake by calling with 3/4 outers. i would just call here, because the pot is small.

mojobluesman · #3 10-09-2005, 04:27 PM

A pre flop raise was borderline for me. I did consider it. I understand your logic on the flop play. Thanks. Learn something new almost every day. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

tyler_cracker · #4 10-09-2005, 04:33 PM

Standard.

Your flush draw only comes in ~33% of the time, but you have top pair now. If you raise the flop, your chances of winning the pot without hitting your flush are greatly increased.

tyler_cracker · #5 10-09-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i would have raised preflop. the hand would have been different after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is QJs really enough hand to try and isolate at an unknown table? With QJs, don't we want like 1 caller or a bunch of callers? Raising from MP2 is a recipe for getting an icky number of callers, like 3.

Anyway, it's close either way, right?

[ QUOTE ]
in this hand, you usually have the best hand and the best draw on the flop, and callers behind you will be making a mistake by calling with 3/4 outers. i would just call here, because the pot is small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting.

Again, this has to be close, no? If there were 7 SB, are you now more interested in raising? I'm not really comfortable slowplaying a a pair of jacks with a flush draw here against 5 opponents. While we do have a good hand and a great draw, there are plenty of icky cards left in the deck (aces/kings and gutshot-completing non-diamonds).

milesdyson · #6 10-09-2005, 05:03 PM

as far as raising preflop, yeah this is enough hand. i don't know if you ever play 6-handed, but this is like raising QJs after utg limps at a 7-handed table. edit: miscounted. it's like utg limps at a 7-handed table. still enough hand, but really limping isn't bad. i just think raising is a tad better.

and yeah, there are scary cards, but it's all about the size of the pot here. some guy making a call with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is making a mistake by calling behind us, and i would expect hands like that to call. the reason calling becomes an option is just because the pot is not very big, and believe it or not there is some chance we are already behind utg, and if so, raising here is severely dropping our pot equity edge by chasing out the donators.

if the pot were 7 or 8 before the flop, i would raise the flop. i'm just going by feel here, but that seems to be where it goes from call to raise.

POKhER · #7 10-09-2005, 05:10 PM

I think the raise is debateable,
Preflop i think is standard.

I raise QJ Vs 1 - 2 opps really.

I think the flop raise may cut some equity, it also could have killed the field so i think i'd have called and waited for turn.

Although it may have helped disguise our flush draw hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] NH.

#8 10-09-2005, 05:14 PM

I don't like the preflop raise option as much as calling. Hands like these gain power for each additional person in the pot. Raising is likely to get marginal hands out. A bit closer to the button and it does become a raise for me.

Raising is not horrible though as you may buy the button and get some intimidation power if a scare card falls.

I like a flop call better. You have top pair good kicker and a flush draw to the third nut (and even longshot straight draws going on). I want to build the pot, not protect it since it is not that big yet. If it gets raise d after me I strongly consider reraising it at that point.

#9 10-09-2005, 07:06 PM

I would have raised pre-flop and raised on the flop also as you did. You have top pair and have third nut flush draw. I believe you played this good. But who am I to listen to. Just my 2 cents.

#10 10-09-2005, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toss a coin for your pre flop play. In a loose/passive game I would limp to encourage callers and hope for a big drawing flop. Or I may raise if I was in late position with several limpers before me.

In a tight aggressive game I would raise most of the time.

I would call the flop bet. You will win this hand a very large percentage of the time even against a large field. You want their money. A definite call in my opinion.