For AndyFox et.al.

[andyfox]

You can stay away from whoever you like. But you can't force people to stay away from you. If a black person moves in next door to you, you're not obligated to stay where you live. Move. But you can't keep them from moving in next store because you don't like them. Exercise your "better judgment."

By the way, you can't get aids from going near a person who has it, so "staying away" from a group of people with a higher AId rate is illogical.

You want absolute freedom for yourself by denying it to others.

[andyfox]

Well, seems to me, if you can find a rationalization for reverse discrimination, to you, that makes it OK. All you did was give a bunch of "becauses".

-Well, you cause it a rationalization for reverse discrimination, I call it a reason for fighting racism. You think blacks are underrepresented in our universities because they're less "cerebral," I think it's because they have a raw deal. I want to make it less raw.

Fair is Fair. Either *no* race considerations or any and all. Any middle is just BS.

-What you call fair is not fair. No race consideration on paper is a racist society in action. Because there are people like you who would prefer to not serve blacks in their restaurants or have them be on their TVs.

My Post means what it meant when we started all this in "Neocon". The tide of racism these days is going toward anti-white. The very presence of a race name in an organization name makes it race based, hence racist. There's no counter argument for that.

-Yes there is. An organization like the NAACP was created to try to assure that blacks were not treated as second class citizens. A white supremicist organization is created to treat non-whites precisely as second class citizens. I see a world of difference between the two.

I do not wish to treat anyone as a second class citizen. And allowing other groups to band together, but not mine is treating *me* as the second class.

-You are allowed to band together with whomever you like. There are plenty of white supremicist groups to choose from.
Their intent, as I said above, is to treat non-whites as second class citizens.

Yes, since "At will emploment" means I can be fired for "any reason or no reason", Why can't I decide who I will or will not do business with for the same "any or no reason". So in real effect all us worker types are second class. Union Workers and Gov't workers have protections the rest of us don't. So being a white unrepresented individual, I'm at the bottom of the list, protections-wise.

I can't "pull the race card" and run to EE0C. I have no Union Steward. My "contract", if you can call it that, states specifically that At-Will is not limited. Beyond that I can't work for my principle for xx months after all is done... yet I recieve no "valuable consideration" for giving up that right. Seems like a "no-contract contract" to me and I'd love to see those clauses tested in court.

-Anyone fired in this country because of race has plenty of recourse. I own a business that was taken into court because we fired a man from our office staff. He was the only man in the office and claimed he was fired because of sex discrimination. I guarantee you that if I fired someone because of his or her race I'll be in court pronto . As I should be.

Seems to me Thorogood Marshall liked to talk about "protected classes". Seems to me he was black.

-I love your spelling of Mr. Marshall's first name. And you're right, he was black.

As I've said all along. If race is *not* to be a consideration... strike *all* language to that effect. Blacks should not be a protected class in the same way ADA people are protected. If your "ADA and black" or "ADA and white" the protections should be the same.

If you are black or white, all other protections should be the same.

-I agree. But you want to deny protections to blacks. You don't want to have to associate with them if you don't want to.

Since the Bakke decision stated that reverse discrimation does exist, yet refused to do anything truly constructive about it, we simply have a chicken sh*t decision.

I also believe we should not be passing bills like AGOA to support africa at the beheadst of the Black Caucus. This is BS. Because I don't even want african products in my home. But it gets hard to avoid when all the manufacturers start going for those cheap materials and labor and sending the jobs to Zimbabwe or whatever.

-You don't want African products in your home, don't buy them. You don't like how your representatives vote on bills, work to get them out of office.

As I've stated before, I would defend any black's right to be equal in law, but also my right to exercise my right to not have anything to do with them, or everything to do with them as I see fit. And vice versa. They don't want me in thier businesses. Fine by me.

-You don't have a right to have nothing to do with blacks. If they want to eat in a restaurant with you, they should have that right. If they want to live in the same apartment building, they should have that right.

Where I draw the line as stated before is in public services. The gov't and possibly corps. funded by public exchanges should not have the same broad rights as a sole proprietor who has his own net worth on the line. Same for the apartment complex. Why should I have to suffer the very real effect on net worth that the blackening of the complex would bring? To meet *your* ideals? Perhaps when the AIDS and crime rate among blacks is less... then this won't happen? Then maybe I'd change my mind. So the onus is on them to join the mainstream... not to make thier ways our mainstream. If they don't want to fine too.

-It's not the "blackening" of the complex that lowers the property values, it's the attitude of people like you. "Our" mainstream?

As for the media, I believe it is just *evidence* that whoever is running it is trying to push black culture mainstream. Not just for the money either. As I now see commercials where blacks are placed in the authority roles.

-The media is in the business to make money. They must feel there is a market for shows and commercials that feature black performers. Why do you find this so terrible?

As noted before, if I have negative feelings about afro-culture, who are you or the gov't to push it on me?

-It isn't being pushed on you. You don't like it, don't watch or listen to it.

As for black pride. They should be as proud as anyone else. There's no shame in being any particular race. But there are groups that a best separate from each other. Say Islam and Jews, for example.

-People learn to hate each other, they are not innately best separate from one another.

However, none of this is a diatribe to return to separate but equal, which was legally enforced segregation.

-Separate but unequal is precisely what you are advocating.

I'm just saying I want the right to choose within the bounds of my life and my assets without interference.

-Fine, so long as you don't interfere with the same right others have.

And I don't want legitimized race based organizations like "The Black Caucus" telling me I can't.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Have no idea who Elroy was. From what I've read of Ayn Rand I think she's a little logically inconsistent too. She seems to argue for equality but thinks umbridled capitalism will lead to it. Highly unlikely. It hasn't worked to date.

Besides, truth is, despite the eloquence of the Gettysburg Address... the Civil War overturned The Declaration of Independance and made us all subjects of the Federal Gov't. Which is a Federal *Republic*. The upside, slavery was overturned. The downside, you can no longer stand in on place and say, "I am not subject to your laws".

[Baltimore Ron]

"-People learn to hate each other, they are not innately best separate from one another."

The field of biological evolution informs us that tribal/group affiliation is hard-wired into our natures. This was a necessary condition of survival for early human beings. We might have big brains, but we have no claws, armor, camouflage, speed, strength, &c. Twinned with the desire to belong to a group is a distrust of those not in the group. Skin color is just an obvious means of identifying "others", but is not the only one. After all, Irish catholics and Irish protestants look pretty much the same, but that hasn't stopped them from killing each other.

I think it is the triumph of civilization to lessen, sometimes to a great deal, this desire to break apart into tribal lines. Yes, there has been much discrimination in this country. Yes, some (hopefully a tiny minority) still harbor anti-{name the group of your choice} feelings. I worry, though, that an emphasis on differences, even if for the right reasons, perpetuates the problem instead of solves it. We need something different.

BR

[Ulysses]

They don't want me in thier businesses. Fine by me.

Yesterday I picked up some brisket from Brother-in-Law's BBQ. It's a black-owned business and all the customers in there at the time happened to be black as well. I'm not black, but they were all very friendly and welcomed me in their business, as always. The other customers were also very friendly.

Surprisingly, I didn't get AIDS and I didn't get mugged during this encounter.

Have you considered that perhaps they have no problem with you in their business? Or if they do, it's not because you're white but because they think you're ignorant and racist?

As I now see commercials where blacks are placed in the authority roles.

Well, you do have a good point. That's just sickening. Have you seen the show 24? They have a black guy as President. I think there was also some movie where Morgan Freeman was President. Crazy. And I also saw some movie where there was a black guy on the Supreme Court. I'll tell you what, if that ever really happened, I'd leave this country.

I see a common theme in all of your posts. Everyone is trying to keep you down or against you in some manner. The government. Your employers. Wealthy people. The blacks. The media. If it weren't for all that, things would be so much better for you, but it's just such a struggle fighting through all this. Everyone else has it so easy and everyone more successful than you just had everything handed to them. But you manage to somehow struggle through in spite of everything you have working against you. How about this? Perhaps you should give some consideration to the possibility that maybe it's just you. There's a lot to be said for taking responsibility for your actions and the corresponding results. I hope you give that some consideration.

[andyfox]

Hi B.R.

I know virtually nothing about biological evolution. But people are not born with religious affiliations. It is politics that makes Jews and Palestinians enemies. Perhaps you are sayiing that once people feel themselves to be part of a certain group, they are hardwired to be distrustful of people outside of that group.

I am in accord with your worry that emphasis on difference then accentuates this process. Thus the need for people to come to terms with, and live with, people outside of their own group. If we allow the separate but "equal" situation that A.A. desires to exist, this will certainly perpetuate, and accentuate, the problem.

I do have some doubts, however, that is is civilization, that helps us. Hunter-gatherers, for example, unencumbered by concepts of poverty and civilization, lived a life of leisure and communism. Perhaps it is us who do indeed need something different.

[Parmenides]

Give it a rest. You obviously dislike Blacks. You aren't going to change. No one cares about your prejudices. Discrimination is against the law. Neither your biases, nor the law is going to change.

Trying to equate political organization and participation by a group that has only had the right to vote since 1965, that lived through apartheid, employment discrimination, education discrimination, red lining, lynchings, beatings, profiling for police harassment, and more is ludicrous to the Nazi's is far more than a stretch.

[Cyrus]

It's quite dangerous to pretend Humans are something they really aren't, i.e. righteous and innately good. After all, we are only a geological blink after the Pleistocene.

"Hunter-gatherers, for example, unencumbered by concepts of poverty and civilization, lived a life of leisure and communism."

O Rousseau, O Milton, I wish that were true!

But it's not. Not at all. I'm sorry.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Andy,
I'd really like to simply be rich enough to have enough space to not worry about who's next door. But try to do that in a society that already as an elite calling the shots.

Perhaps AIDS doesn't jump through the air.

But when Hollywood glamorizes the high risk blacks and white start sleeping with them, it crosses. Over.

Not to throw an insult, but you need to wake up to reality and be able to analyze it as well as you can a deck of cards. I don't know what to say, because you sit there and try to deny facts.

Diseases are like pollution. Throw some oil in the water in Alaska and it will go everywhere. Same as ground water pollution etc.

I do not wish to deny any freedom to others... but I don't want them denying my freedom through law.

I see choosing who comes into my business or real estate as one of those freedoms. Simple as that. After all I have to trade my life for the dollars that buy them. And those hours of my life traded cannot be regained.

Guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

You say it's OK to force things on me I don't want. I say it's not.

Sincerely,
AA

[Michael Davis]

"But when Hollywood glamorizes the high risk blacks and white start sleeping with them, it crosses. Over."

Maybe these whites who are so unduly influenced by Hollywood are just less cerebral.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Andy,
Race consideration on paper is racism, period. God you have a twisted sense of logic. Too much poker Mr. Fox. Seems straight forward linear logic has you confounded. (Of course it's a given, I suck at poker. I admit it.)

The reason property values go down when black move in is because of how blacks are. The reduction of property value is the effect, not the cause.

Have you ever stopped in all this to simply ask, "Why are blacks percieved as a negative?" I'd bet you haven't. So ask yourself that and see if you can come up with some objective answers other than "because whites are racists".

As you point out, "People *learn* to hate". In other words, they have to have encounted a reason to hate.

Think on that some.

I was once fired for my race (I believe) at a large credit card company.

I was contracted to a Black Woman manager with a 95% black department.

I elected to accept a ride to the Chrismas party with a white person rather than drive. (Was in an area I didn't know).

I continued to hang with some of the white folks a the party.

Well between that and my conservative non-ghetto style clothes on the job, I could tell she made a decision, since I didn't "Homie-ize" myself and dress crappy.

Took about 2 days after the party to make an excuse.

Course that's my side. There's always two sides.

I'd have left at the first opportunity anyway. Didn't realize I was going to be in that situation.

I do not want to deny protections for blacks. But I do not what them banding together in Congress if whites can't either.

*In my own personal space* (which includes anything close enough to touch me) and in a nieghborhood where others feel as I do, we should be able to say who we do or do not want there. Geez, gated communities keep "strangers" and poor people out don't they?

Why should *I* have to move. The old law school legal saw about property rights used to be "first in time, first in right".

As for an apartment building. If *I* don't own it... not my decision. But if I *do own it*, it ought to be. Same for the restaurant. It should be the owner's decision. What part of "personal choice" do you keep missing. You continue to want to align me with older racists like Nazis and Segregationists. I agree with neither. I'm specifically against any group that bands together to push their views on others. A group of people who feel like I do and want to separate out assets is quite different from a group that wants to pass laws to force a behavioral standard.

I'm saying, "Let us make our own choices, unfettered". NOT, "Hey you all need to live my way or be penalized". My whole stance on this is a lot more peaceful than you seem to recognize.

Yes, I guess my spelling of Mr. Marshall's name is off. Been a few years since I was in law school.

You keep missing that I do not support Nazi type groups and want to keep aligning me with them. I'd fight against a "Neo-Nazi" caucus too.

It's kind of hard to avoid african products and materials if the manufacturers don't tell you they are there. I've tried on several occasions to get on manufacturer to tell me where the mahaogany in his products come from. Never get a straight answer. But given AGAO, these products will be brought in without your knowledge of what they are incorporated into.

And besides, if the *hole next to me brings african products into the workplace, like one person I know why has a blanket from Nairobi... then at some particulate matter level he's contaminating me... same as second hand smoke. Same as the techno-dweebs 'round here you've heard me mention that have "hit or miss" personal hygiene.

Why do I dislike seeing blacks in the media so much?
Because the media sets trends. I wouldn't want any daughters of mine deciding the blacks are glamorous and decide to sleep with a group that has a higher probability of diseaase and a higher probability the father isn't going to stick around. That's not a racial comment, that's what the stats show. Sorry if it falls along racial lines. I feel bad even saying it, but it's true nonetheless.

Hollywood made drugs look glamorous in the 60,70's and beyond.... how many of your friends died in drug related accidents or incidents? Several of mine have.

Face it people emulate TV. The Jackass Movie or whatever it was already has people hurting themselves.

Well, I'm done. My case stands as far as I can see. 1) Non-whites seem to be allowed to organize on racial lines, but whites cannot; 2) The media is pushing african culture, for whatever reasons, likely money and perhaps Jewish use of blacks as a way to shift focus; 3) Any racial terms in law that give edges on racial lines are discrimatory and racist, even if it's "minorities" that get the edge.

Sincerely,
AA