Out of line line with AJs in blinds? - Page 2

Cumulonimbus · #1 10-31-2005, 02:13 AM

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Assume unknown opponents and that
I've been playing decent and haven't done anything out

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets

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Why?

TheHammer24 · #2 10-31-2005, 02:38 AM

I remember why I bet the turn here. I check/3-bet the flop, so my opponents are more likely to fold than had it been a standard c/r as it normaly is in this situation. The more I think abou it, the more i like betting this turn as a raise isn't even that bad.

nubs · #3 10-31-2005, 02:41 AM

Checking planning to check raise does not seem like a good idea here. You have a monster draw and want to build the pot. Checkraising will usually face the field with 2 bets here. Betting with the hopes of the pfr or someone elsing raising seems best here.

#4 10-31-2005, 03:19 AM

This is a classic example of using the probable bettor to your advantage. The PF raiser is on your right, so you want to bet out and let everyone call one bet before it gets raised. Then you can build the pot without making anyone face two bets cold. You have enough equity to build here, so extract the bets slowly, and it will be less painful for your opponents.

TheHammer24 · #5 10-31-2005, 12:46 PM

SSHE states, and it has been reiterated on this board, that building the pot is not always the correct way to play a draw, especially if you have additional over cards that win you the pot. My hand is strong here I don't see any reason to play it as you have stated.

W. Deranged · #6 10-31-2005, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE states, and it has been reiterated on this board, that building the pot is not always the correct way to play a draw, especially if you have additional over cards that win you the pot. My hand is strong here I don't see any reason to play it as you have stated.

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Yeah but this is a case for pot building. You have twelve outs to the nuts. The extra value of the A outs is probably not enough to merit forgoing a ton of flop bets when you have tons of equity. Note that your As are good a lot of the time anyway, and when they are not, its usually because they are reverse-dominated by hands that are going to be unlikely to fold anyway (AQ and to a lesser degree AT).

#7 10-31-2005, 02:06 PM

Regarding the river play:
IF you check call on the turn, I think you MUST donk the river. Even the dumbest 2-4 players can put you on a diamond draw here. Most won't value bet top pair/overpair here because they are scared of the diamond draw possibility.

#8 10-31-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE states, and it has been reiterated on this board, that building the pot is not always the correct way to play a draw, especially if you have additional over cards that win you the pot. My hand is strong here I don't see any reason to play it as you have stated.

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You can actually work out what the best play is here. You have about 1/3 equity on the flop, assuming a flush is the only way to win. So your share of the pot after the extra 8 SB is put in is 5.5 SB.

If you could somehow get it heads up by check-raising, and you were sure this cleaned up your overcard outs, then you might gain at the absolute maximum 3 outs (assuming you aren't against AQ or something), which would increase your share of the now only 12.5 SB pot to 5.7 SB. Given the flop raise I don't think you can count your Js as outs. I think a realistic count would be maybe 0.5 for the Js and 1.5 for the As.

So protecting is only slightly profitable in the most optimistic situation. It also carries the additional downside that you have lost the two folks on the flop that might have padded the pot on the turn making your flush draw even more profitable on later streets.

Edit: I can see why you played it that way, but this is one of those borderline cases where taking down the pot now is not quite as profitable as building it, IMRC (im my rough calculation). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SeaEagle · #9 10-31-2005, 04:01 PM

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If you could somehow get it heads up by check-raising, and you were sure this cleaned up your overcard outs, then you might gain at the absolute maximum 3 outs (assuming you aren't against AQ or something), which would increase your share of the now only 12.5 SB pot to 5.7 SB. Given the flop raise I don't think you can count your Js as outs. I think a realistic count would be maybe 0.5 for the Js and 1.5 for the As.

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There aren't any A outs to buy. Only the button is a candidate for AK and he's not folding. AQ isn't folding. All the other Ax are lower kickers. I suppose there's an outside chance that A7 is folding but unlikely.

So, facing the field w/ 2 bets and forcing people to fold doesn't do anything but decrease the number implied bets for when hero hits.

#10 10-31-2005, 04:43 PM

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There aren't any A outs to buy. Only the button is a candidate for AK and he's not folding. AQ isn't folding. All the other Ax are lower kickers. I suppose there's an outside chance that A7 is folding but unlikely.

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That's why I said it was the most optimistic situation. I think A is about 1.5 outs because you might be splitting with another AJ that you can fold here, and sometimes you can fold a black AK.