ATs in BB with turn decision

[tardigrade]

This one wasn't a winner, but it was one of the more interesting ones I played tonight. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks,

I like my ATs, but don't think it justifies a raise here. Agree or no?

Flop: (6 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

This is a pretty lousy flop, but I do have two overcards with decent kicker, backdoor flush and backdoor straight. I'm closing the action with my call, so I think I have just enough odds to see the turn.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls.

This was what I wanted to see ... my plan is to check into the field, partially to see how strong it looks, and partially to c/r if there is a 2-3 player gap between me and the raiser to help drive out the draws. When I'm faced with cold-calling 2BB, I no longer like my hand, lay it down, and am immediately glad I did.

Good or bad play?

River: (12.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between MP and Button.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Button (14.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows Ad 3h (two pair, aces and threes).
Button shows 8d 8h (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Button wins 14.50 BB. </font>

[Brian]

Hi tardigrade,

Raise pre-Flop. ATs is a monster compared to what most of your opponents are probably limping with. I'd raise down to about QJs here. The Flop call is fine, but I'd lead out on the Turn. Once it's 2 bets back to you, though, I think you have to fold.

-Brian

[tardigrade]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise down to about QJs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not surprised to hear ATs raised from BB, but I'm surprised about QJs. 90% of the time (unless I'm LAGging), I won't play QJo at all UTG ... does the suited make that much difference? Do you need them connected or do you do the same with KJs? Thanks...

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised to hear ATs raised from BB, but I'm surprised about QJs. 90% of the time (unless I'm LAGging), I won't play QJo at all UTG ... does the suited make that much difference? Do you need them connected or do you do the same with KJs? Thanks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Suited makes a difference, and I would definitely do this with KJs as well

The reason you don't play QJo UTG is because you have no idea what kind of hands you may be up against, whereas you have the distinct advantage in the BB of seeing what everyone else does. It is quite possible your ATs or QJs is the best hand when 5 people limp in. You only need to win 17% of the time to make it worthwhile to force them to throw in another SB.

[chief444]

I raise this pf.

Other than that I think you played it very well.

[tardigrade]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you don't play QJo UTG is because you have no idea what kind of hands you may be up against, whereas you have the distinct advantage in the BB of seeing what everyone else does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh ... enlightenment!

[RED_RAIN]

I think you may have some people missing why you are raising preflop, or perhaps you are not doing it for the correct reasons.

The reason you are raising ATs PFR isn't because you think you have the best hand, but because you want to tie them to the flop when you hit it big.

You will see AJ and AQ limped at this level.

But I still think the raise is for the monster flops with good draws.

Also KJs and QJs I'd just check and go betting it on the flop when hitting top pair. You will likely pick up more bets than when you PFR and then bet out in the BB after you PFR.

There is a post about keeping pots small at lower limits to make others play wrong.

There is also another post about how some opponents play horrible for one SB preflop but play perfect or much better for 2.

In the end I'd PFR raise ATs and bet with an ace out unless I'm told I'm beat then call down, which you will often be ahead still. Be careful about betting into flops with 6 people to the flop with just overs on both flop and turn if you get lots of callers, this is a suck out play. I also don't agree with QJ or KJ suited preflop raise.

[tardigrade]

[ QUOTE ]
There is also another post about how some opponents play horrible for one SB preflop but play perfect or much better for 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been starting to develop an idea about raising preflop based on position and number of people in the pot. Basically, if you are early or first to act and have a hand like AJo, you raise to narrow the field. Whereas if you are late and there are a lot of limpers, you just call to keep the pot small and discourage suckouts. Conversely, if you are late with something like Axs with a lot of limpers, you raise it up to ensure yourself a big pot and good odds when you hit a good flop, but earlier you just call to ensure you get enough people in the pot. It sounds kind of weird, and I'm not sure if it's solid play, but it's an idea I'm really interested in.

[RED_RAIN]

congrats, you figured it out

[Brian]

Hi RED_RAIN,

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you are raising ATs PFR isn't because you think you have the best hand, but because you want to tie them to the flop when you hit it big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstand the main reason why you are raising ATs in this situation. Raising is pure +EV. Your hand will win more than its fair share of pots, so a raise is giving you Sklansky dollars.

Your raise has a couple of other added benefits, but make no mistakes about it, EV is the main reason for it. Tying your opponents onto the pot for those times that you Flop that monster draw is a nice benefit, but at 90% of Small Stakes tables, they are already hog-tied onto the pot whether it's 6 small bets or 12 small bets.

[ QUOTE ]
Also KJs and QJs I'd just check and go betting it on the flop when hitting top pair. You will likely pick up more bets than when you PFR and then bet out in the BB after you PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a mistake. KJs is almost as strong of a hand as ATs, and they're about equivelent in these multiway situations. Raising KJs from the BB after limpers is, again, pure +EV. QJs is significantly weaker than KJs and ATs, but I have no doubt in my mind that raising with it from the BB after limpers is also +EV at almost every small stakes table there is.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a post about keeping pots small at lower limits to make others play wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been proven to be incorrect. The "keep the pot small" argument used to be one of my favorites, and is the argument I'd give when, say, limping with ATo on the Button after 2 limpers (as opposed to raising). I do not have a link to that Sklansky post off-hand, but Trix seemed to have memorize the URL as he pasted it to me about 10 different times. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Anyone here happen to have it off-hand? Basically, it stated that giving up EV pre-Flop in hopes of gaining it back post-Flop is wrong, and that any time you have a situation where you have the best of it, you should make the most of it and raise, unless you are on a short bankroll.