It's like a different Game

[scott2130]

I went to a B&M in the metropolis of Black Hawk, Colorado and they played something that resembled 2-5 spread limit hold'em.

I don't go often so I am alway taken back by the way there are 7-9 people to the flop every hand. It doesn't matter if it is 3 or 4-bet pre-flop, they cold call. And who can not get frustrated by the cold call with 73o and they get 2 pair on the river to beat your AKs.

My questions are, do you have to adjust your play when the game is so loose? Do you play more speculative hands? Only raise with monster suited hands? Call a straight against a 3 flush board with a bettor and 3 callers? Call all the way to the river with the other 4 people when you have over cards? I will admit I did go on tilt for awhile after the 6th suck out. What do you do to keep cool and also not get bored with the slow pace? I got used to playing 2 tables on the net and now get impatient at the card room. Should I bring something to read?

I know there is alot of money to be made at these games but I still haven't figured out how to beat them.

Any suggestions?

[faytlnd]

Read SSHE by Sklansky/Miller. It has great advice for just these such "no fold 'em games". In a nutshell, play only your strongest starting hands, and be very wary of position. When you do have big hands (AA, KK, QQ, AKs) make sure you are raising/capping. Don't play speculative hands, and don't chase gutshots/backdoor flushes. Value bet your middle-high pair with a on the river.

This is just a smallsampling, and a pretty poor summary. Basically, the principle is to get your money (and their money) into thepot when you hae a strong hand. Because yeah they may beat your pocket A by hitting a garbage two pair on the river, but your aces are an overwhelming favorite. So if you can get the same money in the pot everytime you get aces and they have garbage, you will take some beats, but the times you win will make up for it, and you will end up coming out way ahead. Its all about expected value.

[AKQJ10]

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Read SSHE by Sklansky/Miller. It has great advice for just these such "no fold 'em games". In a nutshell, play only your strongest starting hands, and be very wary of position. When you do have big hands (AA, KK, QQ, AKs) make sure you are raising/capping. Don't play speculative hands, and don't chase gutshots/backdoor flushes.

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It's almost as though we've read different books by different authors named Sklansky and Miller.

The preflop recommendations in Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller et al. are quite different for loose games (6+ to the the flop) than for "tight" games (3-5 to the flop). And yes, I'm using scare quotes because in the text Ed says that this is only tight with respect to low-limit games.

The key differences between the two are precisely in the speculative hands: suited aces and many suited kings in poor position, small pocket pairs regardless of position, etc. In general your reason for avoiding these hands with a positional disadvantage is your fear that aggressive play behind you might get players out, hence limiting your pot odds. But if everyone's going to call 2 or 3 bets anyway, you can limp right in without that fear. You may even be paying "too much" for a speculative hand, but you'll get paid off well when you hit.

As for not chasing gutshots or backdoor flushes, Ed doesn't say categorically NEVER to chase. He says you shouldn't chase hands that you don't have the odds to chase. In a standard fixed-limit structure*, if 7 players have put in two bets each before the flop, that's one of the rare cases where it's INDISPUTABLY right to stay in for a bet** with a gutshot to the nuts. While backdoor flushes are almost never right to chase on their own, over and over again Ed stresses that their value needs to be considered (as about 1.5 outs) when evaluating a hand.

No offense intended -- I'm aware I can come off like a know-it-all and I don't mean to. However, I would consider rereading SSHE because it's much much more nuanced than "don't play speculative hands and don't chase gutshots or backdoor flushes."

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....So if you can get the same money in the pot everytime you get aces and they have garbage, you will take some beats, but the times you win will make up for it, and you will end up coming out way ahead. Its all about expected value.

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This paragraph of the post is IMO a good summary of a key concept.

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*The math is somewhat different at spread limits, but the point is if you're getting better than 11:1 you have no doubt the odds are correct to stay in.

**If the play is aggressive, and you're not last to act, you will need to consider that your draw may cost more than one bet. That's beyond the scope of this post.

[GreywolfNYC]

Play all your suited aces, and all pocket pairs, from any position. If you want to loosen up a bit play big, suited Broadway connectors. Throw everything else away.

[chardog]

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Play all your suited aces, and all pocket pairs, from any position. If you want to loosen up a bit play big, suited Broadway connectors. Throw everything else away.

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Agreed. I played in Blackhawk $2-5 spread a lot last summer. Try to limp from any position with PP and AXs. When you hit your set or two pair pound the pot, DO NOT slowplay. TPTK does get run down a lot in these games, very frustrating.

[scott2130]

Thank you for your help. I thought the quoted part was solid advice and it is good to know it works were I play.

So I am correct that there is alot of money to be made at those games. I am going out of town for a week but will try this new strategy as soon as I get back. If you go again PM me and maybe we can meet up for a drink on my winnings.

Thanks everyone, and I will post to let you know how it works.

[SNOWBALL138]

Thinking of your hand as a "made hand" and everyone else's hand as a "drawing hand" isn't that useful in the loose games.
What you should instead consider is your equity. You need to ask "will my hand win its fair share?" instead of "will my hand win most of the time". These are different statements. The first has to do with making money, the second has to do with winning pots.
Read small stakes hold em 2 or 3 or 4 times.

[Drjekel]

I went through this learning curve recently. Having gone from mainly On-line games - to live games - and waiting paciently for good cards in prime position - and constantly being sucked out on - I had to re-evaluate my game.

As stated, drawing hands go up, way up in equity.

Last 2 trips to play 3/6 - has seen my 120 and 160 buy in be whittled down to $40 - only to pull down a few huge pot's and turn this around.

In short - see more flops (Ace suited, suited connectors, pocket pairs, big face cards) and outplay your opponents on the flop.

Throw away hands (unlike the rest of your opponents) and only slowplay HUGE monster hands when there's a bettor in the field (and there usually is).

There is a lot of money to be made out there.

I rolled in my local at 9AM sunday. to sit down at a table with 2 guys who had been playing (and drinking beer) all night - and another 2 who had been to a previous casino all night and had come to this one on their way home. I walked out more than doubling my stake.

[Eder]

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drawing hands go up, way up in equity.
- see more flops , suited connectors,
Throw away hands


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[steamboatin]

Sleepy drunks are +EV.