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#21
12-08-2005, 03:00 PM
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Re: A8o
Its tough with the read, but I think if he was going to aggro bluff raise, hed prolly raise that flop to get the SB out. The fact he just calls, but raises the turn, makes me likely to believe its really more of a hand. If he is bluffing tho, he will always bet this river, so I think if you are unsure enough, its worth the call, both for the odds you are getting, and for some info about his play.
Against the super aggro types, I will check these turns a lot and they pretty much always bet it for me, but not sure if I like that multiway. I c/r flop as well 
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#22
12-08-2005, 03:21 PM
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Re: A8o
Your flop play is perfect, there is no reason to build a pot with your holding and trying to protect it w/a bet and a possible raise is excellent.
Tough spot on the turn; AK should raise the flop often I assume you are thinking so yes, call. Therefore, you are likely good here better than 11%, call.
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#23
12-09-2005, 02:35 AM
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Re: A8o
Your flop play is perfect, there is no reason to build a pot with your holding and trying to protect it w/a bet and a possible raise is excellent.
basically what i thought when i did it. granted its only over a small amount of hands, but his aggro factor was high enough that i figured betting into him was the better play here. i felt like he had a hand on the turn for sure, but getting 7 and change to call with 4+ outs + the bluff % and i figured i should call. the river is a situation where i would have folded if i had more data on him. with such a small samlple to work with, i would rather be wrong all the time and call then right most of the time and fold.
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#24
12-19-2005, 01:43 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
cr flop... [/ QUOTE ] Why?? Why even make a reply like this? There is no reason to c/r this flop, you hand is weak and you need to protect it. C/R doesn't do it, betting does. C/R'ing builds a nice pot for overs to correctly call. I think this comes right down to that old TOP like process of "think why you raise".
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#26
12-19-2005, 02:25 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason to c/r this flop, you hand is weak and you need to protect it. C/R doesn't do it, betting does. C/R'ing builds a nice pot for overs to correctly call. I think this comes right down to that old TOP like process of "think why you raise". [/ QUOTE ] Betting the flop will work well if the PFR has a worse pair and raises. But that's not a very likely hand for him. Otherwise I think he calls with overs and raises when you are beat. So you get no protection for your hand when you are ahead and get raised and isolated when you are drawing. Ick. Supporting data for my view are 1) the tentative read on the Button as a sensible TAG, 2) a flop that should suggest to Button that OP is betting a pair and not bluffing a draw, and 3) Button seeing a SB behind him who is not going to cooperate with an overcard raise by folding a small pair. OTOH the checkraise is money in the bank. We have much more than 1/3 pot equity so if we can't protect our hand anyway then why not charge the maximum amount and hope for the best? The flop is very read-sensitive and actual knowledge of how Button plays should supersede the guesswork given above. There are lots of gungho LAG-TAGs who will raise this flop because they are the PFR and it's their turn. If you find one then by all means take advantage.
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#27
12-19-2005, 02:31 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
Betting and having each player just call is disastrous here. [/ QUOTE ] So, C/Ring, having him call is??? His read on the PRF is hyper-aggressive, he wants to induce a raise to knock out the SB.
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#28
12-19-2005, 02:34 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
Betting the flop will work well if the PFR has a worse pair and raises. But that's not a very likely hand for him. [/ QUOTE ] The likely hand is overcards and his read indeed was... [ QUOTE ] There are lots of gungho LAG-TAGs who will raise this flop because they are the PFR and it's their turn [/ QUOTE ] That's what the OP was tying to do.
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#29
12-19-2005, 02:44 AM
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Re: A8o
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] you hand is weak and you need to protect it [/ QUOTE ] Are you kidding?? His hand is strong, and in a 3BB pot it hardly needs "protecting". Betting and having each player just call is disastrous here. [/ QUOTE ] disastrous? i dont see how thatd be disastrous, but i would go for the checkraise here every time... its called v-a-l-u-e. this guy will not never check the flop through and i like your hand... if you dont cr, u cant cap... joe tall, why are you always so effing effing concerned w/ "protecting your hand"?? your like a man possessed... scared of a little variance, quit playing SH LHE... i like to get value when i flop the nuts. OP, river, ez ez call. of course call.
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