General HE forum required reading

[Greg J]

If you have not already, you need to check out this thread in the General Hold em forum. There are some awesome posts there that are very relevent to some basic stuff that has come up in this forum lately. There are some great posts by a variety of well respected posters, including Ed Miller.

This goes double for you new posters. Especially make note of Ed's post on the importance of relative position.

[sean c]

Nice work Greg.

[Blunderfull1]

Great post. It was very interesting to me and probably others as well. I think its also important to define tilt, considering how much talk there was about it in this post. There are some great posts about tilt, but the short version is that tilt doesn't have to be extreme maniacal play. It can be little things, that add up to you not playing your "A" game. Lots of people have this misconception that tilt means you have to be raising with no regard for the consequences. I find it hard to believe that a person could ever avoid tilt forever, to some degree.

From the thread, a line from a Noted Poker Authority:

[ QUOTE ]
You don't raise enough before the flop. 7.7% is not enough. Your PFR should be at least in the double digits.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Micro FAQ, and another noted poker authority, albeit an uncapitalized one:

[ QUOTE ]
PFR: preflop raise (%). The typical range is 7-10. A few posters exceed 10, but many posters begin their first 10K hands at or below 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to start a stats post, obviously, because we have one of those going, but does the FAQ need to be revised? Why the discrepancy? Do noobies start low and then build it up? Because I'm not much higher than 7.7%, and I always figured that I was in a reasonable range, if a little tight. And now Ed Miller, by proxy, is telling me otherwise.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
From the thread, a line from a Noted Poker Authority:

[ QUOTE ]
You don't raise enough before the flop. 7.7% is not enough. Your PFR should be at least in the double digits.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Micro FAQ, and another noted poker authority, albeit an uncapitalized one:

[ QUOTE ]
PFR: preflop raise (%). The typical range is 7-10. A few posters exceed 10, but many posters begin their first 10K hands at or below 7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to start a stats post, obviously, because we have one of those going, but does the FAQ need to be revised? Why the discrepancy? Do noobies start low and then build it up? Because I'm not much higher than 7.7%, and I always figured that I was in a reasonable range, if a little tight. And now Ed Miller, by proxy, is telling me otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed also talks about starting with the training wheels on. Start by pushing the more obvious edges since that's going to make the biggest difference in your game while you're starting out and allow you to avoid difficult marginal situations post flop (most beginners are still learning standard lines and how to play hands in which they have a decent edge at this stage). Later as your post flop play improves and you begin to evaluate starting card strength situationally your pfr % will almost certainly increase all on its own.

Some people are more naturally aggressive than others, and it's been argued that playing too loose/aggressive is a good way to learn how to deal with difficult situations while the lessons are cheap. I think people will get more out of starting slowly and working their way up, but I can understand the other point of view.

I started at 7% after reading winning low limit and HFAP. I oviously didnt get it.

Now after I have played a few thousand hands and read the boards I am way over 10%. FWIW I started stealing in late position and isolating limpers. Work on that and your pfr should rise.

[Greg J]

I think it's good when people point out inconsistencies like this. Good question. Jason's (detruncate's) answer was good, and I would like to add something. In and of itself 7.7% pfr is not HORRIBLE, but in conjunction with an 18+vpip it is WAY too low. If yr vpip is ~15 (which is probably too low), then a preflop raise of ~8 to 9 is more acceptable. With a vpip of 18 yr pfr should probably be at least 10 or higher.

The point is that PFR is not a stat you should look at in isolation, but rather in conjunction with vpip. If I see a player with a good sample of hand that have a vpip of say 23, but a pf raise of 5 or lower i usually make a note of it. This is out of proportion. I interpreted Ed's advice to mean "keep the 18, raise up that 7." He said at least double digits, though I don't think 18/9 is horrible, though 18/11 is closer to ideal.

Also, Ed tends to use more extreme phrasing and examples to make his point sometimes.

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that PFR is not a stat you should look at in isolation, but rather in conjunction with vpip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I'm going to seem like a bit of a prick, but here's another line from the FAQ:

[ QUOTE ]
Some suggest that PFR should be half your VPIP, but that's an effectual coincidence and should not be your goal. If you only have a VPIP of 13 or 14, you will still often have the same PFR of 8-9 as someone with a higher VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not disputing you Greg, because I actually prefer your take on things: I had noticed a few months ago that my VPIP and PFR were a little low, and thus looked for more PF opportunities. I think I started just limping a lot more though, with more marginal hands, rather than finding those extra (and less obvious) PFRs as well. So I too think that they ought to be moved in conjunction with each other.

I guess we could say that there's a little controversey over PF stats, which makes sense, because then it's just like anything else. I like the general slant of yours and detruncate's arguments, though, which is that an increased VPIP and PFR will accompany more skillful, perceptive play. That way the stats measure the thought process, rather than guiding the play.

[Greg J]

I don't want to speak for btspider, but there is some room for leeway here. I player could have a vpip of 15/10 and be okay. As you get more experience both vpip and pfr should creep up, and they should do so together. I know you aren't trying to put a wedge between me and bt, and our opinion probably differ on this somewhat, but we both will agree these numbers 1) DO go together while conceding that 2) correlation does not denote causation. A higher vpip does not MAKE yr pfr higher (or viceversa). They both have the same underlying cause. In statistical terms, they are different dependent variables with a similar relationship to the same independent variable.

He is right in saying that making these number "match" quote: "should not be yr goal." He is 100% right. This should occur naturally.

[mojobluesman]

So a VPIP slightly above 15 and PFR slightly above 8 is a reasonable combination. The next question is why my VPIP is so low. I would answer that I don't play small pocket pairs and low Axs nearly as often as many players here do (certainly not early) because if there are profits on those hands, it is hardly worth the distraction when you are playing 3-4 tables at once. Also, they become even less profitable (or losers) as you move up and the games get tighter.