KQs, how was this hand ?

[jakbse]

grunching

Pre-flop is fine in this particular case, even though I normally either folds or 3-bets.
Flop, since UTG capped his range is something like QQ-AA or AKs. It means you outs to top pair are very tainted. I'll give you at the max 3 outs here, so I guess a call is ok. I don't think a raise does any good here.
Turn, you catch another club. Since there's not much of a reason to protect your overs, I'd suggest a smooth call here.
River, your semi bluff seemed to work. I suggest you take the free showdown since you're likely behind.

[matt hooley]

ok, now it seems there is a fairly unanimous frown of disdain at this cold call, but no one seems to be providing much explaination other than it's bad without more cold callers first.
but why ??

trust me, I don't cold call very often but this is a circumstance where I'm considering it.

[Homer315]

I don't like the cold call preflop. Too likely to be dominated, and without a read that you'll get lots of cold-callers behind you, I'm not sure it's +EV.

I think the flop call was probably bad because the PF 3-bettor is behind you and might easily raise. If you knew you could see the turn for 1 bet, then maybe.

Turn raise is not for value.

The river I REALLY don't get. What hand does UTG cap pre-flop with, that you are beating here? He's probably wedded to his AA or KK or AK, and is pissed you hit your A5s or something stupid like that. I see him capping with AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. Maybe AQs too. QQ and AQs are the only hands you're beating here, but you bet the river. I just don't get it, unless you think your only chance of winning is to bet, and hope he folds....

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]

Thought I'd throw this in. At best your reraise buys 3 outs (and I mean at very best). If the raise buys 3 clean outs 100% of the time, you're only getting back about .8 BBs for your one. Now double check my math for me:

3 outs are worth approximately 6.5% (14.3:1 dog) of 12.75BB = .83BB

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for emphasis. Turn raise is poor. Buying outs is nice, but it's not worth it here.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
but i had just got done reading some HEPFAP on early position before playing and this was stuck in my head at the time
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i had just got done reading some HEPFAP on early position before playing and this was stuck in my head at the time
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey aaron -

if the table conditions were such that you could expect a bunch of other coldcallers i'd rather coldcall with KQs versus a loose player (who isn't a loose raiser). the reason being that in all lieklyhood i am behind and need to catchup postflop, and having several others in the pot is good for me in that case. against a loose raiser, i'd be 3-betting.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

[/ QUOTE ]

poker tracker was showing him as LAP , i was thinking "loose raiser" from what i saw at the table so far. but i wasn't at the table long enough to really be certain.

Grunch:

Given everything you said, I think the turn raise was still a really bad move.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey aaron -

if the table conditions were such that you could expect a bunch of other coldcallers i'd rather coldcall with KQs versus a loose player (who isn't a loose raiser). the reason being that in all lieklyhood i am behind and need to catchup postflop, and having several others in the pot is good for me in that case. against a loose raiser, i'd be 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll buy that argument. But that's not the situation presented in HPFAP. I'll requote it here with some bold added:

[ QUOTE ]
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch:

Given everything you said, I think the turn raise was still a really bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmm, yeah so that's probably why everyone was making comments after the hand about how much i suck and that they were makin notes, etc. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]