Complaints About New Forum Version

[imported_Chuck Weinstock]

Find a shortish thread (say 3/4 replies and 2/3 levels of nesting) and agree among yourselves what the appropriate order of display should be and I'll see what I can do. I don't want to hear individual suggestions, I want to hear a consensus.

Chuck

[BottlesOf]

I don't understand how there is any doubt? A person should be indented one notch to the right from the person they're responding to, and immediately below that person. Multiple people responding to the same person should stack on top of each other, probably most recent on top. How else would it be done?

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how there is any doubt? A person should be indented one notch to the right from the person they're responding to, and immediately below that person. Multiple people responding to the same person should stack on top of each other, probably most recent on top. How else would it be done?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes anything else would be weird.

Basically it should be in the same order it was before the upgrade.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
A person should be indented one notch to the right from the person they're responding to, and immediately below that person. Multiple people responding to the same person should stack on top of each other, probably most recent on top.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. The only debatable part is the "most recent on top". I perfer it the other way because the natural way to read through them is from top to bottom and it makes sense to read the older replies before the newer ones.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A person should be indented one notch to the right from the person they're responding to, and immediately below that person. Multiple people responding to the same person should stack on top of each other, probably most recent on top.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. The only debatable part is the "most recent on top". I perfer it the other way because the natural way to read through them is from top to bottom and it makes sense to read the older replies before the newer ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

As much as I didn't want to make any more posts for the next couple of days, I have to voice my agreement with bobby and the rest. I had previously said that I didn't mind the most recent being on top, but it's just too much of a difference/headache for the majority of forum users.

Just make it how it was before the upgrade.

[Greg J]

When me, [censored] and Cola all agree on something, I don't see there being any more of a censensus possible! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I totally agree here.

[BruceZ]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how there is any doubt? A person should be indented one notch to the right from the person they're responding to, and immediately below that person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course.


[ QUOTE ]
Multiple people responding to the same person should stack on top of each other,

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course.


[ QUOTE ]
probably most recent on top. How else would it be done?

[/ QUOTE ]

With most recent on bottom, which was the way it was once upon a time. I'd be willing to live with this either way, but one problem that needs to be fixed is that when you click on a post in threaded mode, it should bring up the post that you clicked on, not the first unread post.

I noticed that one long standing problem seems to have been fixed with this upgrade, and that is that when you bring up a post in threaded mode, the order of the displayed posts no longer changes. In other words, the order of the posts once you are reading a post is the same as it was in the index. Please do not break this again.

In other words, make it exactly the way it was before the upgrade (except for retaining the above mentioned improvement) and it looks like we have a consensus.

[BottlesOf]

Yea I just want it the way before the upgrade. That goes for a lot of things.

[Lloyd]

It looks as if copying a pasting a thread from an external source (like a .txt file) results in a loss of URL formatting. This is actually quite important for MTT as I do a lot of writing off line and then paste "2+2 compliant" code into a post.

Here is an example. If you try to cut and paste this into a post the URLs no longer work even though they are in the correct format.

[Lloyd]

So when I cut and paste what's in that file, this is what we get:

Welcome to the 2+2 Multi-table tournaments board FAQ.
The FAQ contains a guide to posting hands, some information about how the forum operates and very brief descriptions of some poker concepts with come up frequently, these descriptions are very far from exhaustive and are only intended to orient members who are unfamiliar with the ideas. Finally, there is a brief list of some common MTT acronyms/abbreviations.

Guidelines for Posting Hands:
1) Use the converter
It can be found here. (note that by default it is set to FTR Format, and should be changed to 2+2)
Raw Hand Histories are difficult to read and cumbersome, using the converter will be doing everyone a favor and making your post more likely to get replies. Note that you should try and use the converter even when posting hands in "Official" tournament threads.
2) Have an informative title:
A quick summary of the hand in the title is helpful. 'Calling all-in with 99' is a lot better as a title than 'Should I have folded this instead?'
3) Introduce the hand clearly:
Basically, what you should do, in one sentence at the top of your post, is answer the following question: Why am I posting this? This will give us a good idea of where you’re coming from and make the discussion more productive.
i.e.: 'By not controlling pot size early in the hand, I think I paint myself in a corner by the river' or 'I really think this was a solid execution of the squeeze play'.
4) Include pertinent information:
Buy-in, stage of the tournament, reads on the villains, your image at the table. This stuff is generally very brief, but crucial (consider the problems in HoH an indicator of how to do this). Also, thinking of reads and such when you post hands is good practice to make sure you’re thinking about it at the table. Notice how the great players always seem to have reads to include, this isn't a coincidence.
5) Do not post results:
Consciously or not, it’s impossible not to be impacted by the results of hand. Accordingly, not posting them is necessary to getting the best possible discussion. Not only should you not post results, you should stop all the action at the point in the hand that you want to discuss.
For instance, the following is flawed:
[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 (t2450)
Hero (t710)
MP3 (t545)
CO (t4923)
Button (t2580)
SB (t1726)
BB (t1809)
UTG (t1168)
UTG+1 (t835)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t835</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t710 (All-In), <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls t435.

Flop: (t2530) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2530) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2530) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2530


[/ QUOTE ]
While it may not contain the end result of the hand, there is still information there that may poison the well, the hand should be posted as follows:
[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 (t2450)
Hero (t710)
MP3 (t545)
CO (t4923)
Button (t2580)
SB (t1726)
BB (t1809)
UTG (t1168)
UTG+1 (t835)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t835</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t710 (All-In)


[/ QUOTE ]
Who are the best players/posters in the forum?
Difficult to say, we have been lucky to attract some great poker minds in the community who are unafraid to share their knowledge even years after "breaking through". Of the many players who belong to the stable of content rich posters, some names comes immediately to mind: Sirio11, MLG, Jason Strasser, Sossman, Che, 2005, Fnurt, Woodguy, Schwza, Adanthar and Exitonly, to name a few, are hallmarks of the MTT forum. That being said, everyone is free to state their opinion, and no one should be reluctant to intelligently question or second guess any arguments, regardless of the reputation of the author.

What are the best posts in the forum?
A very fine selection has been compiled here.

No one is replying to my thread, may I bump it?
This actually happens very rarely, 2+2 is a very active forum, and most threads get some responses, so give it some time. If it does happen however that after a day no replies have been made, rather than a bump, if you feel that a good opportunity for discussion has been missed, you should probably reply to your own thread with more of your own thoughts on the hand/question/observation/theory or a reformulation of your post, as this is simply more productive. If you still don’t get any responses after this, it’s probably best to just let it go because, for whatever reason, people weren't compelled to reply.

Where can I read Raymer’s MTT posts?
The older archives are full of posts by the World Champ, they can be found here.. Fossilman knows the game as well as anyone and was never reluctant to offer his advice. Many of these posts are quite good, and 2+2 approached Raymer about writing a book based on them even before he won the WSOP. That book is forthcoming.

What sites have the best tournaments?
Generally PokerStars is considered the leader for MTTs. They lead the pack because they have a continuous stream of tournaments starting in an assortment of games/buy-ins, also they offer the preferred software and customer support. However, there are some advantageous to playing on other sites. For instance, smaller sites often offer overlays (where a guaranteed prize pool is actually higher than the actual buy-ins, and accordingly the site is contributing to the prize pool). Party Poker is a popular choice despite some problems with their software/customer service because on average players there seem to be less skilled. Ultimate Bet is also a good site for MTTs, many argue it offers the best tournament structures.

What is a good ROI/ITM%/FT%?
Difficult question to answer, generally many have said that any positive ROI is a good one, 100 is solid. As for ITM, anything over 10% is good, and MTT guru Sirio has said his records haven’t shown any player above 20% with a decent sample size (this is for online tournaments with fast structures, deeper stacks and slower levels should allow a skilled player to break that cap).

What is the bankroll requirement for playing MTTs?
Ring game players have their 300 BB rule of thumb, the MTT equivalent would be 50 buy-ins (note: includes vig). Accordingly, if you want to play 10+1$ tournaments, you would need 550$ roughly to keep yourself ample cushioning to handle variance. Of course, this rule is meant to be applied to freezeout not rebuy tournaments.

What’s the best way to keep records on my MTT performance?
Exitonly created a comprehensive Excel document for this purpose which he shares with anyone interested, or "]http://sng.pokercomment.com/] SnG tracker[/url] is a small piece of software which may also be handy.

Can I create final table sweat thread?
Sure, here are a few guidelines for that:
First off, such posts should not be created until you reach the final table. Also, when creating a new post, you have the option of selecting an icon to appear next to the title. For organization’s sake, we ask that sweat threads carry the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] icon. Also, in the title should include the site, game and buy-in of the event, something like:
FT Sweat: Party NLHE 10+1
Finally, in the post itself, please remember to include your ID on the site in question.

Can I create a brag/gratitude thread?
Sometimes people like to create a thread after they've won an event to brag a little about their accomplishment and/or to thank the MTT forum for helping them with their game. These are fine, we like to hear that you are doing well and that people are getting something out of the forum.
Also, it has come up on occasion that people have felt so indebted to the forum after a large MTT win, they wonder if they should offer some financial compensation, the answer is no, although we might suggest that in the case of a big win, a donation to a charity of your choice might be in order. Paying back the forum is a simple as contributing wherever possible with insight and suggestions.

(LC)? (OT)?
Abbreviations for Low Content and Off-Topic respectively, should be used in thread titles on the rare (note: rare) occasions that someone posts something they want the forum to see but it is either fairly insignificant (LC) or not relevant (OT) to the discussion of tournament poker.

Which tournaments get *Official* threads? Can I create one?
Tournaments that get official threads are generally ones that are either very high profile or just attract a lot of 2+2ers. These include a slew of the big Sunday tournaments, the nightly 10+1$ rebuy on Stars and the 40K guaranteed on Party. If you are in a tournament and know that multiple other 2+2ers are as well, you may create an official thread, however do not do so until the tournament is already underway and ensure that such a thread does not already exist.

Why are Jurollo and Lloyd the mods?
They drew the short straws.

Where/How can I sell Poker Stars W$/T$
This thread. is reserved for that very purpose. We ask that discussions on the subject are limited to that area.

I have a question regarding a Stud/Omaha/other non-HE tournament, should I post it here or in the forum assigned to that game?
Plenty of regulars in this forum are well versed in all the games, feel free to begin a discussion on any of them.

What are the best books to read on the subject of MTTs?
Theory of Poker by David Sklansky is required reading for playing winning poker.
Harrington on Hold ‘Em by Dan Harrington and Bill Robertie is a two volume look at NLHE MTTs. Although these books were published very recently, they became instant classics with good reason.
Tournament Poker for Advanced Players
by David Sklansky is an in depth look at the tournament theory and concepts for players who are already proficient at poker.
Highly anticipated upcoming books include HoH III (a workbook) and a book by Greg Raymer’s book.

How should I play rebuys?
There is no set in stone way, here are a few guidelines:
2+2ers generally like to take an immediate rebuy (double your stack before you play the first hand) but many don’t do this. Taking the add-on however is all but compulsory, the only real time you shouldn’t be taking it is when you have very few chips at the end of the rebuy period and have given up on cashing in the tournament.
Accordingly, when considering playing a rebuy, realize that you need to be budgeted to spend 3-4 times the buy-in at least, playing a rebuy as if it were a freezeout and quiting if you lose your chips is ill-advised.
In terms of how you want to play during the rebuy period, you shouldn’t depart from your regular game too much. The main thing to do is take into consideration the way other people are playing and adjust accordingly, a lot of people play very loose/bad poker during the rebuy period determined to come out of it as the chip leader, you need to take advantage of that.
Also, Party Poker has a 'bug' affecting it's rebuy tournaments which allow players to rebuy whenever they are all-in (regardless of the outcome of the hand). The bug is pretty much common knowledge and used by many players. Whether or not you want to use it, it's somehting you should know about.

I play micro-buy-ins but can’t win because it is impossible to navigate these huge fields of fish since bluffs are always called and suck-outs are so common. Should I move up?
No, for two reasons. First off, fish and suck-outs are everywhere, regardless of buy-in. Secondly, if you can’t beat small MTTs, you won’t be able to beat the bigger ones.

What’s EV/cEV/$EV?
EV is expected value of a decision over the course of all possibilities. For instance, if I were to flip a coin offer you 1$ if you called it correctly, that would have a positive expected value for (it would be +EV), specifically you can say that the EV of each flip of the coin is 0.50$. Now let’s say I give you a 1$ if you call a coin flip correctly, but I charge you 0.55$ per flip to play the game. This is a wager you should not make, as it has a negative expected value (-EV).
When you are at the table, you not only want to make sure your moves are +EV, you want to maximize the expected value of them. For instance, if you pick up AA UTG in the first hand of a major tournament, pushing all-in right then and there is a move that has a positive expected value, but it is not the move you want to make because there are other approaches which offer a lot more.
cEV is Expected Value in Chips, in other words the chips that you will win/lose on a decision over the course of all possibilities.
$EV is Expected Value in Dollars, in other words the actual money that you will win/lose on a decision over the course of all possibilities.
In a cash game cEV=$EV because of course the chips are worth the amount they represent, however in a tournament this is not that case as the latter is contingent on payout structures and other considerations while the former is not.

What is the Gap Concept?
Coined by David Sklansky, the Gap Concept is a tournament phenomenon which states that it takes a stronger hand to call raise than it does to make a raise, even where the amount of chips being put in the pot is the same. There is a 'gap' between hands which meet the requirement for one and the other.

What is Folding Equity (FE)?
The potential that a bet/raise will cause all other players to fold and thus claim the pot and end the action. For instance, the folding equity of a pre-flop open push is contingent mainly on position and one the size of your stack (earlier postion and/or a smaller stack means lower FE).
The STT FAQ contains the following formula:
(Percentage of times all remaining opponents will fold to your bet)*(total chips you stand to gain when they do all fold)

What are M and Q?
Discussed in great depth HoH II, these concepts pertain to tournament endgames when the blinds and antes have becomes very significant.
M is simply the ration of stack to the current total of blinds and antes. For instance, if you are at a ten player table with t17,000 chips and the blinds are 5,000/10,000 with a 1,000 antes, your M would be just under 7 (170000/(5000+10000+10000) = 6.8). The most obvious application of M is that it tells you how many rounds at the table you can survive before being blinded off.
Q is the ratio of your stack to the average number of chips left for each player. So if you have t50,000 left and the average stack size is 10,000, your Q is 5 (50000/10000 = 5). Q gives you a general idea of your position in the tournament, though at the same time Harrington calls it the 'weak force', because it is not as powerful an indication of how aggressive you need to be as is M.

Can I ask for backing/a loan?
No. If you really, truly believe you have earned the right to make such a request, PM a mod first and ask for permission, though the answer will almost always be no and mod decisions on the matter are final.

What do the acronym/abbreviation mean?
For anything that is not on the list below, consult, this very comprehensive list of by 2+2 poster HoldingFolding
Sats: Satellite
HoH: ‘Harrington on Hold ‘Em’
TPFAP: ‘Tournament Poker For Advanced Players’
TOP: ‘Theory of Poker’
ROI: Return on Investment
Mod: Moderator
LL: Last longer prop bets. Generally held for some Poker Stars events and initiated by one of the known MTT posters. (note: in other contexts, LL can also mean low-limit)
PP: Party Poker
PS: Poker Stars
TLB: Tournament Leader Board, generally referring to the one on Poker Stars
R+A: Rebuy/Add-on tournaments
ITM: In the money.
AI: All-in
HE: Hold ‘Em
PLO: Pot-Limit Omaha
O8: Omaha Eight or Better
WPT forum: 2+2s World poker Tour and other Televised Tournaments forum
PM: Private Message
WCOOP: World Championship of Online Poker on PokerStars.
Party 40K/Stars 45K/…: Refer to tournaments on these sites with guaranteed prize pools of the amount specified.
FPP: Frequent Player Points