Annoying hand with a short stack.

[pzhon]

This is an example of why it can be a disadvantage to have a deep stack.

Online NL, 10-handed.

UTG had 20 BB. Loose fish.
UTG+1 had 115 BB. Tight player.
UTG+2 (Hero) had the table covered.

Preflop:
Hero is dealt QQ.
UTG limps, UTG+1 raises to 8 BB (unusual), Hero calls 8 BB, 7 folds,
UTG reraises to 20 BB (all-in), UTG+1 minreraises to 32 BB, Hero folds.

UTG shows ATs.
UTG+1 shows KK.

Board: QJ5QA.

UTG wins the main pot of 49.5 BB - rake.

[BZ_Zorro]

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This is an example of why it can be a disadvantage to have a deep stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean apart from the fact that you would have won a 115BB+ with your flopped set had someone not reraised?

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an example of why it can be a disadvantage to have a deep stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean apart from the fact that you would have won a 115BB+ with your flopped set had someone not reraised?

[/ QUOTE ]
Who would have lost that money? Another big stack. The two of us put together had a disadvantage. The short stack had an advantage.

With the actual hands, the short stack was about equally happy whether I called or folded, assuming eveyone would see the river. However, he would have been really happy to see KK force out AQ or AK.

The eventual 3rd best hand forced out the eventual best hand. This happened only because there was more money after the short stack pushed.

[BZ_Zorro]

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The two of us put together had a disadvantage. The short stack had an advantage.

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No, the short stack had good odds, that's not the same as an advantage. He's still losing it all here 70% of the time. The big stack got all in with the best hand (a 2:1 + favorite), which is exactly what any size stack wants.

And yeah, short stacks suck.

We should email Party and suggest upping the min buy in to 1/2 a full buyin. $20 stacks really have no business being in a $100 game.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The two of us put together had a disadvantage. The short stack had an advantage.

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No, the short stack had good odds, that's not the same as an advantage.

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You are missing my point. The short stack did not have good odds. It was a bad play, but much less bad because he had a short stack, while UTG+1 and I didn't. He was rewarded because the big stacks collided, and what would have been the eventual best hand was knocked out.

[BZ_Zorro]

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You are missing my point.

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No, I'm not, though you're right about shorty not having odds of course.

[ QUOTE ]
This is an example of why it can be a disadvantage to have a deep stack.

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No, it's an example of why it's bad to have a maniac acting behind when you're trying to flop a winner with a dominated hand. Stack sizes are irrelevant.

Note that while the outcome disadvantaged you, it equally helped big stack KK who had the best hand. Collectively, there was no disadvantage to big stacks.

And the short stack still got all in with the worst hand, without odds, making a play he never would have made without Miller's book and a short stack.

The only person disadvantaged here was shorty. All the rest is results oriented. Yes I agree that short stacks can disadvantage big stacks collectively, but this is not an example of it.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
it's an example of why it's bad to have a maniac acting behind when you're trying to flop a winner with a dominated hand.

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That is a good point, but it is not the only aspect of this hand.

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Stack sizes are irrelevant.

Note that while the outcome disadvantaged you, it equally helped big stack KK who had the best hand. Collectively, there was no disadvantage to big stacks.

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The stack sizes are relevant, and there is no reason to suppose the big stacks are helped and hurt by exactly the same amounts. When the stack sizes allow one big stack to force the other big stack out, this can increase the short stack's equity in the main pot. The competition between the big stacks is not zero-sum.

With the actual hands, the short stack was hurt by about 0.5 BB because I couldn't overcall in the main pot, since if ATs beats KK, it will probably beat QQ, too. However, over the range of hands I could have, the short stack was helped a lot, preferring about 30% of 49.5 BB over about 20% of 61.5 BB. The big stacks are hurt by about 2-3 BB when KK knocks out a hand from the range QQ-JJ, AK-AQ, AJs.

[BZ_Zorro]

You win. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Actually it's 3am, I suspect your logic/math is flawed somewhere [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], but I'll get back to it tomorrow.