Bluff raising the river

Dudd · #1 06-19-2005, 05:49 PM

The initial raise preflop was to attempt to get heads up with the limper who was extremely loose and played awful heads up. The preflop three better was a TAG over a fairly large sample size, so I could safely put him on a decent hand. Anyways, my image to this point has to be pretty loose and aggressive, as I've been getting good hands and attempting to isolate against loose players, with fairly good results. Anyways, once he checks the turn, I was almost one hundred percent certain he was on high cards. I took the free card looking for my gutshot or one of my overcards, but after that missed, I felt as though raising the river against a thinking TAG might get him to throw away a big ace which had me beat. Is this a decent play, or is the check behind on the turn enough weakness that most players will call me down with a hand such as ace high?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises...

jjacky · #2 06-19-2005, 06:26 PM

preflop: i think this play is horrible. you are only a slight favorite over a random hand and there are 4 players yet to act.

flop: this appears to be a clear fold as well. you are certainly behind and no idea which outs are good.

river: might be a good play but i don`t think so. if you have a loose agressive image, the probability to get called is increased. with 9.5 to 1 odds he will probably call with ace high.

brettbrettr · #3 06-19-2005, 06:40 PM

I don't like the pre-flop raise at all. Q-high is not nearly enough of a hand to isolate with.

I guess he could be bluffing the river but I'm not sure from your description that he won't look you up anyway. I do however think that raising is the only way to win this pot folding.

jstewsmole · #4 06-19-2005, 06:54 PM

I know its tempting to get a real loose weak player HU but i have to agree that ur getting too loose here preflop. If u guys were closer to the button like he opened in a late middle position and ur at the CO then maybe.

PostFlop: I dont like the call here on the flop it doesnt tell u anything. If ur gonna continue, i would raise to see where ur at.

Turn: Taking the free card might be good but betting may also be good it does look like hes got AK. Maybe hes planning a C/R with AA or KK and if u bet and he raises i think u can safely fold. by betting u give him a chance to fold.

River: The other thing by not betting the turn u probablly induced a bluff by A high which makes this hand trickier. I f u bet the turn u would avoid this bluff attemp on the river. Also, its cheapere to see a show down this way even know most of the time ur gonna lose.

The fact that the top card on the board paired on the river doesnt help this bluff raise IMO because it looks like ur trying to represent trip tens. which if the player is a thinking one i dont think he would by it with ur preflop raise.

It seems that this player is weak though so it could work.

ihardlyknowher · #5 06-19-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my image to this point has to be pretty loose and aggressive, as I've been getting good hands and attempting to isolate against loose players

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, QJo is not the hand to try the isolation play with.

BB most likely has AK or an overpair, with AK being slightly more likely given the turn check (although a missed c/r attempt is not out of the question). I think your flop call and turn check, show you don't have a T. Also, your turn check shows you don't have a straight. So, I think your bluff-raise looks to fishy to work 20% of the time (which is what you need it to here) even if he has AK.

aK13 · #6 06-19-2005, 08:49 PM

FPS.

mosta · #7 06-20-2005, 08:04 AM

fold pf, fold flop, fold river.

crunchy1 · #8 06-20-2005, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The initial raise preflop was to attempt to get heads up with the limper who was extremely loose and played awful heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Contrary to what everyone else has said, I think this is a great reason to attempt to isolate from the HiJack with QJo. Of course, you have to know that they'll let you do it. I don't really mind is someone comes along in the blinds - I think you have to expect that when you isolate at the 2/4 level. What I really need to know is that the CO/Button are going to fold out.

[ QUOTE ]
raising the river against a thinking TAG might get him to throw away a big ace which had me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you better be a little more sure than this - seems like spewing unless you have a good read here. There seems like a decent chance that he whiffed a c/r on the turn and then bet out deciding not to risk missing another BB.

crunchy1 · #9 06-20-2005, 08:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: i think this play is horrible. you are only a slight favorite over a random hand and there are 4 players yet to act.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not horrible. He's about a 3-to-2 favorite over a random hand. That doesn't matter anyways because we're not all-in. Villian he's attempting to isolate plays poorly HU and that's a good enough reason for me to take a shot here.

crunchy1 · #10 06-20-2005, 08:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If u guys were closer to the button like he opened in a late middle position and ur at the CO then maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villian's position here is irrelevant as a loose player is generally going to limp the same range of hands from any position because, they are typically unaware of the advantages of position. Hero's position - if you're suggesting he be one seat over - cannot possibly make that much of a difference especially, if the CO/Button are reasonably tight.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the call here on the flop it doesnt tell u anything. If ur gonna continue, i would raise to see where ur at.

[/ QUOTE ]
A raise isn't going to tell you anything either. If Hero continues to give action the TAG Villian is likely just going to call and then trap on the turn. The only reason to raise here would be to see the turn and river cards for 2SBs and I don't think at this point (on the flop) that it's really worth it.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the top card on the board paired on the river doesnt help this bluff raise IMO because it looks like ur trying to represent trip tens. which if the player is a thinking one i dont think he would by it with ur preflop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the check-behind on the turn is what makes it look a lot less likely that Hero has trip-tens. There are plenty of hands that a LAG player would raise in Hero's spot PF that contain a ten.