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  #1  
Old 05-26-2005, 02:11 PM
dmk dmk is offline
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Default Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

I don't fold. I can't fold. I hate folding.

This isn't an issue w/ being too lose preflop. Compared to players like strassa, MLG, and gavin, I'm incredibly tight preflop. I honestly don't consider myself to be a great postflop player. I can get by just fine, but I'm far from excellent, or even great, at playing flops. At least I recognize this and play fewer hands than I'd like to.

I'm working on the above problem. In the early stages of MTTs, I feel like I definitely need to open up more, especially in LP. Hopefully by doing so, my postflop game will improve. So often I find myself in situations where at each break I'm thinking "damn, i need more chips still....." Very rarely do I find myself chip leader before the 2nd break at any point.

I've found that I don't place very well in rebuy tournaments. Again, I attribute this to mediocre postflop play since there are deeper stacks for hours 2 and 3. I've started to play better, getting a 4th in the $10r recently and 5th in the $50r last night.

The root of my problems, though, is that I don't fold. I don't want to. So often I'll find myself in a situation where I tell myself "well...he could have played X and Y this way, and I can beat those..." It might be because I play relatively few hands preflop, so I expect to win those everytime I play a flop. I read a post from bugstud that said he had the same problem. I feel the need to win any pot that I get involved in. And thats a big problem.

I'm going to the WSOP ME. I'm hoping I can work out some of these issues before then. Obviously postflop play is going to be a big factor w/ the chips/structure.

I'm not sure what I expect out of any responses, maybe just some general advice? Has anyone else had this problem and found a way to help correct it?

If you made it this far, thanks for taking the time to reading my probably incoherent ramblings.
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2005, 02:20 PM
DireWolf DireWolf is offline
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Default Re: Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

Well, here are my thoughts.

1)I am the same way, by and large. To many times, i will try to win pots i should not be trying to win.

2)Its good you play MTTs. I think only in MTTs and SNGs can u try to win most hands you play, and not get absolutely killed.

3)I hope by saying you can't fold, you actually mean you raise to much when you should fold. I haven't ever seen u play, but calling down is much worse than raising. (simple advice, i know, but maybe for some of the newer readers)

Here is a basic example of how i lose to much:

Early raise, i call with two cards like AJ or something.

Flop comes
K,6,2.
Raiser bets, I push, he calls with AK.

This is one of my big problems. Is this what you are talking about? Or are you talking about calling down to much?
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2005, 02:28 PM
dmk dmk is offline
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Default Re: Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

[ QUOTE ]
Well, here are my thoughts.

1)I am the same way, by and large. To many times, i will try to win pots i should not be trying to win.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is somewhat the same for me. Usually its when I put in a preflop raise and feel like I'm obligated to win the pot.
[ QUOTE ]

2)Its good you play MTTs. I think only in MTTs and SNGs can u try to win most hands you play, and not get absolutely killed.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I'm definitely a tournament player as opposed to cash. I can hold my own in a cash game if I take it seriously, but when i play NL ring games, so often I start thinking to myself that I need to take everyones entire stack, and that just doesn't happen often compared to tournament play.
[ QUOTE ]

3)I hope by saying you can't fold, you actually mean you raise to much when you should fold. I haven't ever seen u play, but calling down is much worse than raising. (simple advice, i know, but maybe for some of the newer readers)


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I mean raising. Occasionaly I'll find myself getting caught stealing and it will be a 2:1 call w/ KTs or something like that, and I'm not sure if I should be folding or calling in those spots. Again, I tell myself "well, if he has 22-99, AQ, AJ, QJ, then I should call."
[ QUOTE ]

Here is a basic example of how i lose to much:

Early raise, i call with two cards like AJ or something.

Flop comes
K,6,2.
Raiser bets, I push, he calls with AK.

This is one of my big problems. Is this what you are talking about? Or are you talking about calling down to much?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is quite the problem I have. If anything, I probably go too far w/ top pair hands. I have a problem slowing down under some circumstances. Perhaps its just due to the online structures? You don't exactly get rewarded for making good folds. Often I find myself thinking that I'd rather risk my last 1000 and hope I have enough outs instead of trying to play out the last 1000 after folding w/ 10BBs left.
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  #4  
Old 05-26-2005, 02:55 PM
DonT77 DonT77 is offline
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Default Re: Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

I've been working on an experiment lately to help my game and I think the same experiment could help you as well.

I buy into a very low entry SNGs or MTTs (less than 1% of my bankroll), and I play almost every hand PF until I lose 50% of my starting chips. Yes, this is a losing strategy, but I am spending small $ to work on improving my play after the flop. I'll often be confronted with situations where I flop middle or bottom pair and I am out of position; IMO learning how to play problematic situations like these are what separates the good players from the great players. Playing trash cards like this also helps us to learn to fold more (as 7 high rarely wins a showdown), and of course since we're playing loose it helps us to get action when we do catch a big hand.

Of course this experiment also helps us to work on our short stack game - unless we can trap somebody early with a big hand. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 05-26-2005, 03:32 PM
Schaefer Schaefer is offline
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Default I can ramble too!

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps its just due to the online structures?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a huge part of it. Once the blinds start to overwhelm you, you really can't fold top pair hands. The same is true live but that point comes far later in the game. Too many people look for insane folds at these points and leave themselves with too few chips to do anything. I think I have that leak as well...rarely folding late in tourneys...but I think it's far better than folding too much.

The more interesting point to me is playing uber-tight early in a tourney. I personally play tight as a frikkin drum early and I wonder if that's really the best way to go about things. Daniel Negreanu and others are famous for going crazy early and taking advantage of the weaker players before they go bust. Maybe it's because I'm not as good as them yet postflop that I need to play tighter.

I think you may be on the right track...experimenting with loosening up a bit early in online tourneys to practice your postflop play. I don't really know any other way.

Blah, I don't really know what I'm saying. I hope someone can put this in better words.

Schaefer
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  #6  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:02 PM
dmk dmk is offline
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Default Re: I can ramble too!

Thanks for your input Brandon. I'm also extremely tight compared to most MTT players. Did you still play this way at the EPT finals? starting w/ 200 blinds, I felt like I could get in w/ somewhat marginal holdings looking to flop a monster.

I think one of the keys for me early in a tourney is going to be not comitting myself to the pot so much when I have the lead. Its on of those happy mediums I need to find where I'm charging enough for draws, yet not committing a lot of my stack, all while trying to keep my bet from looking too weak and getting pushed over the top. Also, I have to learn how to just not bet the flop everytime I raise preflop and it gets checked to me, especially early in a tourney. I'm sick of getting c/r all the time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #7  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:15 PM
PocketJokers72 PocketJokers72 is offline
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Default Re: Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to the WSOP ME. I'm hoping I can work out some of these issues before then. Obviously postflop play is going to be a big factor w/ the chips/structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an online site called Bugsysclub that has starting chips of 10k and 25/50 starting blinds. They don't have huge starting fields either (ala Party/Stars). Try playing there if you want to get used to the deeper starting chip structure.

As far as 'learning to fold' have you read Zen and the Art of Poker (Phillips)? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...s&n=507846

I felt it was a great read regarding patience and frustration control. Best of luck.
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  #8  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:22 PM
dmk dmk is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 42
Default Re: Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to the WSOP ME. I'm hoping I can work out some of these issues before then. Obviously postflop play is going to be a big factor w/ the chips/structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an online site called Bugsysclub that has starting chips of 10k and 25/50 starting blinds. They don't have huge starting fields either (ala Party/Stars). Try playing there if you want to get used to the deeper starting chip structure.

As far as 'learning to fold' have you read Zen and the Art of Poker (Phillips)? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...s&n=507846

I felt it was a great read regarding patience and frustration control. Best of luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've briefly flipped through it before. I don't think I have any tilt problems or anything. I've gotten past the whole frustration part of my game.

Perhaps I'll give it a full read over the weekend. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.
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  #9  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:29 PM
Scooterdoo Scooterdoo is offline
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Posts: 294
Default Re: Help Me Fix This Big Leak (Some Rambling)

It sounds like you know the problem, probably know the solution, but for some reason are reluctant to act on it.

When you find yourself in a situation that you need to make an important read you must be able to objectively think through your opponent's potential holdings and act on what you think is reasonable or likely. It appears that you are always trying to convince yourself that your opponent has the worst possible hand of the hands you put him on. From experience you need to do better than this. One thing I would suggest is when you are not playing a hand ALWAYS try to put the players on a hand and when and if a hand is shown down see how close you are. You see, when you're not playing the hand, you can be more objective since you're not 'rooting' for the players to have anything particular (e.g., a hand that you beat).

You cannot be afraid to lay down a hand. If you make a mistake, you make a mistake.
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