Poll: Facing a Check-Raise

[pzhon]

You are in MP. Everyone folds to you. No player has stood out as a maniac or particularly passive. Everyone has about 100 BB. You open-raise to 4 BB, and only the big blind calls. The flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The big blind checks, you bet 8 BB into the 8.5 BB pot, and your opponent check-raises to 25 BB, 17 BB more. What is your response with the following hands?

If you just want to see the results, please just answer for AA, leave the rest blank, and submit your answers. If you would mix up your play, just choose what you would do next time: if you would raise 60% of the time, please answer raise 60% of the time.

[Yeknom58]

dude,

too many polls. I got to like the 50th one and just quit.

[PinkSteel]

Just think of how long it must have taken him to set it up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[rikz]

I'm surprised how many people call with the nut flush draw given the poor pot odds and the fact that villain has more chips to put in the pot if the turn card misses the flush. I think this is a very expensive call that is probably -EV unless the villain is semi-bluffing to a lower flush draw. Why so many callers?

[Ghazban]

I'm more surprised by the number of people who are anxious to 3bet with the nuts (top set). Hands that will checkraise this flop are very far behind AA and stacks aren't so deep that missing a re-reraise here will make it hard to get all-in by the river.

[rikz]

They're probably 3-betting to make those nut-flush callers pay more to see their 9-outer on the turn. I'd be happy to take it down right there, and happier if he called or re-raised my top set with a lower set or TPTK. I'd reraise top set here to (1) fold out any flush draw semi-bluff and (2) get more money in from a lower set, 2-pair, TPTK, or (in the case of a calling station) even TPWK. I hate slow playing top set on a draw-heavy board. You don't worry about giving the free card by just calling?

Edited to add:

A lot of semi-bluffers like to check-raise their semi-bluffs rather than bet them because it looks so strong that it will often knock out TPTK. So it is not unreasonable to put villain on a flush draw as much as 1/4 of the time he check-raises like this.

[Ghazban]

At small stakes, checkraises are almost never draws; they are usually two pair or a set (sometimes TPTK). Assuming its headsup by the time the checkraise happens, 3betting lets smaller sets, two pair, and TPTK get away (relatively) cheaply when they almost certainly would've bet again on the turn.

See this thread for an example: Leaving money on the table with top set

TheWorstPlayer's response in that thread is dead on.

[Student Caine]

Excellent point Ghazban, regarding the fact that any hand strong enough to check-raise in that position is really, really hurting against AA.

I actually voted to reraise (which am now rethinking) - and I would either reraise All-In (75% of the time) or min reraise (25% of the time) in hopes of getting another reraise to shove me All-In/pot commit us.

My logic here was that if the 3rd heart does fall I am not going to be feeling so great about my situation and I do not envision someone with a big hand (middle set, bottom set, or two pair) dropping it to my reraise. However, as I think about it a little more, I would possibly chasing out TPSK and losing some equity in the process.

So my question is this...if the 3rd heart falls on the turn (and does not pair the board), what is our strategy: try to check to the showdown? Ignore the heart and bet/call the turn? Ignore the heart and raise the turn?

[Ghazban]

Bet/raise the turn. If you have the ace of hearts (don't recall if its on the board or not), you're crushing all non-flushes and have redraws to beat opponent's flush (any heart gives you the nut flush, board pairing gives you a boat).

You might lose middle set if you bet it too hard as he might put you on the flush but, if you bet half pot or so, he'll probably call and hope to fill on the river (which you hope he does [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

About the only decent reason to 3bet the flop is that a heart turn could kill your action but I'm willing to take the chance to give middle/bottom set a chance to hang himself. Hands strong enough to checkraise probably won't go into check/fold mode just because a scare card hits.

[Student Caine]

Thanks again Ghazban, that definitely makes sense.

The more I sit here and think, and after reading your "Leaving Money on the Table with Top Set Thread" (which was very insightful - thanks a lot) I think I am misconstruing the meaning of the phrase "You want to get your chips in when you have the best hand" (from the looks of the other thread I am not the only one either [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) - the fact of the matter is just because I get all of my chips in does not mean that the other guy has to follow me, and I could definitely cost myself money in the form of lost payoff.

Thanks for the insight.