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  #1  
Old 04-30-2005, 04:22 AM
Schwartzy61 Schwartzy61 is offline
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Default 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

yeah, yeah I know FAQ says two hands should be max, but I've seen others post multiple hands and all of these deal with being aggressive enough on the flop and when to slow down thereafter...

After looking over my stats I realized I was much too passive on the flop and some what maniacal on the river. Tonight was the first time I tried to change this.

Here are 4 hands from tonight's session that i had some trouble with, any and all suggestions are much appreciated...

------------

Hand 1:

Only my 2nd hand at the table, previous hand MP2 was aggressive w/ TPTK, MP3 had called to river and didn't show.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

I bet the flop because I was the only one to show aggression preflop and didn't think anyone would bet for a checkraise.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Eek, hate to see this card. I bet again because the flush still may not be out and my hand is still best. Plus I would call a bet anyway drawing to a fullhouse.

River: (10.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Why did this card have to come? I wasn't sure what to do at the river here, so I stayed aggressive, but was it misplaced?
Do I call the raise? Should I have check/called?

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

------------

Hand 2:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Don't have real solid reads as it's still less than 2 full orbits in on this one but UTG+1 was betting/raising good hands even thouse like TP with medium to strong kicker and calling with lots of others. SB was a maniac, betting/raising most of the hands he got preflop and continuing to bet/raise the flop no matter what.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Well I didn't really want to fold and figured this thing was gonna wind up being reraised behind me and most likely capped so I just helped it along here. Equity had to be pretty good, would you just call or are you out of this hand right now? Seems as a likely raise/fold situation with the reads I had. I put UTG+1 on either top pair and a decent to big kicker, overpair, or made set. SB raising the majority of his hands preflop and continuing betting onto the flop, he would then slowdown on the turn/river. I think my thinking was misguided in this case and am wondering what a good play is here?

Turn: (16.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

I raised here hoping to buy an out (my ace) or free showdown, plus equity still seemed great. But after the pot got so large I knew I couldn't fold, do you just call or raise to take advantage of Pot Equity edge?

-----------

Hand 3:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

MP3 is the maniac
CO was pretty new but had thus far been acting like a Tight Aggressive/Aggressive. On one previous hand he bet the flush draw with two overcards, not something I see a lot at these tables.
BB was new as well and he hadn't played a hand yet.


Flop: (6.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Raising is the right play with so many draws right? But do you raise/call or try and cap it?

Turn: (15.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Validates more outs, I can't see not betting/raising/reraising here either...

River: (21.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero...

This is where I'm not so sure what to do, I'm torn between a 3-bet and just calling...

------------

Hand 4:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

UTG+2 is the maniac from the previous 3 hands. I have a little better read on him now. He's maniacal preflop and on the flop. He turns into a calling station on the turn and river without the best hand. MP3 in this case is a player from the first two hands that will play a good/great hand aggressive on the flop but will slowdown if any resistance is offered.

Flop: (17 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds.

Nice to flop a set, but not on such a coordinated board, I was hoping for a checkraise here to help push out a flush draw or one card straight draw. I got lucky the bet came so late...

Turn: (12 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds.

Well flush card comes and I bet out again I never really expect a flush until someone is willing to play back at me strongly. In this case, I feel a bet/call is best play against the field. Am I thinking wrong here?

River: (14 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, Hero...

Great, just like the first hand posted here. Not only the flush is given but now a straight is one measly card away as well. My heart screams call and my head says fold, I guess the mind should win out? Was this a check/fold situation, or was I still too aggressive betting out here?

Final Pot: 17.80 BB

Thanks again for any "constructive" criticism [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #2  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:26 AM
davelin davelin is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

Didn't read all but hand 2, don't raise turn.
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:32 AM
95Aero 95Aero is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

I would have check called the river on hand one - and I think with the pot being decent it's definitely worth it. I've won in many situations like that when I was "sure" I was beaten by a flush and it turned out I beat two lower pairs or a failed straight draw.

I think your river bet does no good there because IF he has got any spade he would call or raise your bet regardless and he'd probably never fold to your bet.
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  #4  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:33 AM
xLukex xLukex is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

Raise hand 3. There is a good chance he's betting a straight.

Hand 4, check the river and fold. There is a good amount of cards that beat you (I won't bother to count them like the other nerds on this forum). I know it's hard folding a set, but sometimes it's necessary. This is one of those times.
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  #5  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:56 AM
MrWookie47 MrWookie47 is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

Hand 1: Nice hand. I think you made all the right moves for all the right reasons. With your passive read on MP2, I think you made an OK fold. Watch him closely, though, and reevaluate your assessment.

Hand 2: This is anything but a raise or fold situation. This is barely a raise or call situation. You have 35% equity or so (some dirty outs if you're against a set), and more than 2 opponents. This is a great time to 3bet for value. Play your flush draws very strongly on the flop in general if you have 2+ opponents. Your play at the time was right, but your hesitancy now is a problem. On the turn, you no longer have an equity edge, especially if no one folds. Also, you don't really want a free showdown. You want to cap the river if you hit, and check/fold if you miss. There's no way A high is winning in this large field. Just call, keep as many along for the ride as possible.

Hand 3: I raise QJs preflop, usually. On the flop, you're looking at a 5.5 outer (can't see giving your overcards outs on that coordinated flop and large field). You barely have the odds to call (no where near the equity needed to raise), and with a maniac and a TAG behind you, it's likely to get raised, destroying your odds. Fold the flop, and pick a better spot to fight with the maniac and the TAG. On the turn, you do have enough of an equity edge if everyone calls your bet. It's uncommon to get this many callers, however. With a gutshot and a flush draw, that's 12 outs, giving you about 24% equity. You also have the maniac who acted behind you. I'd check to him, let him bet, and then raise if 3 or more people call him, or call if not. Cap the river every time. No need to fear a higher flush when someone could have raised hitting a striaght.

Hand 4: Don't try for a check/raise when you're the preflop aggressor. Just bet out, and get money in the pot holding top set. Turn is fine. River, yuck. I'd certainly fold TPTK here, but I'd hate to get pushed of a set by someone who just hit a queen. I'd probably bet/call (definitely bet - Clarkmeister's theorem) in this fairly large pot, but I'm willing to accept the critique of others who say that's bad.

P.S. I don't mind that you posted multiple hands since you obviously put a lot of work into the post. You posted your thoughts and your reads, which helps everyone respond. Had you just posted the 4 hands with no comments, it would have looked really bad. I give you a big thumbs up for the quality of your hand post.
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2005, 06:28 AM
Schwartzy61 Schwartzy61 is offline
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Posts: 362
Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

Thanks for all the help and your compliment.

In case you wanted to know here are the results (in white):

Hand 1: Didn't Show
Hand 2: <font color="white">Bet/fold/fold and no show after a blank hit</font>
Hand 3: <font color="white">CO showed a Q high straight </font>
Hand 4: <font color="white">Flush was actually made on the turn with Axs</font>

Thanks again!
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  #7  
Old 05-01-2005, 07:11 AM
handsome handsome is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

1: looks ok
2: looks ok
3: raise preflop. whoa, I hate the flop raise/cap. 3-bet the river
4: bet the flop hoping for a raise, check-fold the river
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  #8  
Old 05-01-2005, 07:35 AM
ArturiusX ArturiusX is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

[ QUOTE ]
Raise hand 3. There is a good chance he's betting a straight.

Hand 4, check the river and fold. There is a good amount of cards that beat you (I won't bother to count them like the other nerds on this forum). I know it's hard folding a set, but sometimes it's necessary. This is one of those times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Search for Clarkmeister's theory. It essentially says, bet the river/fold to a raise is easily the best line for the 4 flush.
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2005, 10:25 AM
StevieG StevieG is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't read all but hand 2, don't raise turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not raise the turn here?

It is already a 16BB pot. I would think there is plenty of pot equity here to raise. Isn't there also some value in trying to disguise the flush draw? Plenty of players seem to raise their four flush on the flop, then call down on the turn, making it an easy read.
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2005, 10:42 AM
aron aron is offline
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Default Re: 4 hands from tonight\'s sessions...

[ QUOTE ]
I raised here hoping to buy an out (my ace) or free showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

The above is from hand #2

I'd say there isn't any point in a free showdown, on the turn he bet into a flop cap.
Your A high won't be any good anyway.

-aron
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