A post about the first two cards

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
(What would you do even HU in a flop like K92 etc). You need to be a master of postflop play (if this makes sense against calling stations) to survive. So could this be a case of limping at LP (against loose blinds)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. Absolutely and without question (assuming it's checked to you). More often than not they'll give it up right there.

at least, that's what i do, but i could be completely wrong.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It’s folded to me on the CO with 44. Easy raise. Even if the blinds are loose, your positional advantage the rest of the hand will make you money. NEVER open limp from LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

For this specific example. What do you hope to achieve by raising with 44 against loose blinds? They are not going to fold enough times (possibly ever) to make this profitable. So with 44 you cannot play anything on the flop unless you hit your set. (What would you do even HU in a flop like K92 etc). You need to be a master of postflop play (if this makes sense against calling stations) to survive. So could this be a case of limping at LP (against loose blinds)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Good question. No, this would not be a case of just limping. One of the major things I want to get across is that open limping in LP is always a mistake. If you were against loose blinds or smart TAgs then I would sooner fold than limp. If you feel that uncomfortable about limping here, then just go ahead and fold. You are not getting enough people along for the ride to play any hand for set value. (NOTE: I am not recommending a fold -- it's a big mistake, just not as big a one as open limping.)

I will try to lay this out for you (and others) a little better. The logic of playing 44 this way is similar to the logic of the semibluff in that there are several ways you can win: 1) You can take down the blinds. Sometimes even loose passives will fold here. Not often, but enough to consider it. 2) You can win by having your hand hold up UI. This will be fairly common. Against overcards 44 is a small favorite. 3) You will sometimes hit your set.

Now, when the blind does have a better hand, you have position which will minimize your losses (or should). The whole theme of the post, and what I'm trying to get across is the importance of position. I want to make clear: just because you are raising 44 preflop does not mean you are married to the hand. In your example of a K 9 2 flop, which is actually a pretty good flop texture for you, what you do depends on your opponent. If he is TA and bets into you on the flop, I like a line like raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to a CR, or fold to another bet. I usually check through the river UI. Again a loose passive player, you can usually get away with a bet-bet-check line (UI), folding to a CR anywhere.

Now on a flop like A K T, you are certainly not willing to spew chips, and your positional advantage help you aviod this. I will usually bet if checked to on the flop, but that is usually all the money I'm willing to put in. This can often buy you a free look at the river, but it's more of just an outright bluff. Again, this is read dependent.

Hope that makes some degree of sense.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]

Hope that makes some degree of sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, it certainly does.
Would you consider some percentage of times (10%-20%?) to play differently to prevent reads by your opponents or is this worthless for microlimits?

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider some percentage of times (10%-20%?) to play differently to prevent reads by your opponents or is this worthless for microlimits?

[/ QUOTE ]
Remember microlimit players come in different flavors. As far as reads go, if you are open raising not only 44 in LP, but a variety of hands, including broadway cards, suited connectors, and basically anything playable, he won't know what the hell you have anyway. You could have 44, KJo, Axs, whatever. It's hard for him to read you.

[@bsolute_luck]

okay, first great post. thank you. it was very helpful. now on to my newbish questions. i was going to put this in the beginner, but since it is relevant, i figured i'd ask here.

"open limping" and "open raising"- are these based on it being folded all the way around to you? is cold calling based on someone betting or limpers already in the hand (this is preflop obviously not postflop)?

i have been very focused on my preflop play because if i'm not comfortable with the hands i have chosen, i get easily lost postflop. and by properly setting up the hand preflop, i can win a lot more postflop, but this question came up as i reread some of SSH's recommendations/thoughts.

[sweetjazz]

Thanks for the great post, Greg. Preflop play *is* very important. And that doesn't contradict the fact that postflop play is also more important.

Just wanted to add something to one line you wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, preflop and postflop play go together, as the decisions you make early in a hand go on to affect the ones you make later.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely true. When you're making preflop decisions, you should be forming in your mind a plan for postflop play. Obviously, it cannot be that specific of a plan, as you can't account for every single possible flop. And I wouldn't really spend a lot of time worrying about rare flops (e.g. a monotone flop with 3 undercards, where the suit on the board does not match your hole cards at all). Think about how you are going to play if you hit top pair; middle pair; overcards; a draw with 8 outs or better; one overcard; an underpair; etc. You should be considering the possibilities that are most likley, e.g. with AK you are thinking about top pair and overcards, with 77 you are thinking about what to do based on how many overcards come.

Are you playing 77 primarily to win unimproved (e.g. 3-betting a maniac who open-raised) or for set value (calling after several limpers)? Who's in the pot so far? How does my hand compare to the likely range of hands he has? Do I know a lot about his postflop play? The more you can read an opponent postflop, the better your chances are. I might 3-bet somone with Axo on the button if I though there was a good chance I could get it heads up and if I had knowledge that he typically folded overcards on the flop (or even if he does so on the turn). That information more than makes up for the fact that I'm likely dominated. OTOH, I will easily fold AJo (and maybe AQo) in that spot against a TAG open-raiser. This player might even have slightly looser preflop standards, but his different postflop playing style significantly decreases my EV, sometimes so much so that it turns a 3-bet into a fold.

Also, while postflop play is important, even the most skilled postflop player can't do much if he cold-calls a raise from a tight player with KJo. Similarly, he can't maximize his profits if he just limps with KJo on the button if there's a single limper in the pot so far whose VP$IP is > 75%. Such preflop mistakes are very costly.

[Greg J]

You've got the lingo straight yeah. Open raise means you are first in and raise. Open limp means you are first in and limp (call). Cold call is when you call someone else's raise (or reraise), and is generally a mistake (but not always).

This is not totally irrelevant for this forum, so don't sweat the noob question too much. I think they should have a definition of these terms on some sort of FAQ on the beginner's page, but they don't yet.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]


"open limping" and "open raising"- are these based on it being folded all the way around to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You're the first person putting money into the pot voluntarily.

[ QUOTE ]
is cold calling based on someone betting or limpers already in the hand (this is preflop obviously not postflop)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold-calling is calling for 2 bets or more when you have not put any chips into the pot to that point. E.G., UTG raises, UTG+1 calls would be a cold-call. Overcalling is when UTG limps and UTG+1 calls.

UTG=Under the gun (first to act).

[ QUOTE ]
i have been very focused on my preflop play because if i'm not comfortable with the hands i have chosen, i get easily lost postflop. and by properly setting up the hand preflop, i can win a lot more postflop, but this question came up as i reread some of SSH's recommendations/thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will probably be at least break even if you follow the SSH pf charts and don't play horribly post flop. Good place to start.

Welcome to the forum. Check out the FAQ for lots of useful info. Also jump into the conversation by replying to threads, even if you think you might be wrong. We all learn together.

Happy pokering.

[flopwell]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet. Absolutely and without question (assuming it's checked to you). More often than not they'll give it up right there.

at least, that's what i do, but i could be completely wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely....they will give it up 60% of the time.

[OrianasDaad]

Here's a preflop question about small PP in late position. Let's say a bunch of passive players (4+) limp to you in the button, and you have 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I normally raise this, knowing that I'll probably drag a big pot if I hit a set, I can get away from the hand if I miss, and that I have a good chance of seeing four board cards instead of three.

Bad play? I haven't done the math on it, but it seems right intuitively.

Good post, BTW. It's over this past month or so as I watched my VPIP climb from 16% to just under 20% that I realized that my pre-flop play was improving because my post-flop play was better than it used to be, along with my interpretation of reads on players.