$109 tourney, T5s hand

[betgo]

I don't have any problem with the play on the flop. With 2 pair against a set on a JT5, rainbow flop, you are going to go broke.

The preflop raise is stupid and selfdestructive. As the 2nd chip leader at the table, why make a CO raise with junk at the chip leader's BB? If you have a hand, go ahead and raise on the chip leader's BB. However, you have alll sorts of smaller stacks to pick on. You are at a disadvantage against the chip leader as he can threaten to bust you out. Why get involved in this?

[PrayingMantis]

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The preflop raise is stupid and selfdestructive.

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Yes, I'm almost convinced now it wasn't the best spot for a garbage steal, but again - big stack wasn't a particularly aggressive player or anything, and if there's a big enough chance he simply folds or even just calls as he did, I don't think I really hate playing a hand against him with position.

In the past, very similar hands helped me to get big chunks out of other big stacks (which is sometimes easier than to get it out of smaller stacks), who overplayed their hands when I hit miracles with bizzare hands. This particular flop was very unlucky flop for me, of course, but you can hit such unlucky flops whether you hold AKs or T5s, hitting 2p against a better hand.

[schwza]

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yes the way ahead/way behind concept. Its important. learn it, live it, love it.

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i don't think this is one of those hands though. Jx has 9 outs on the flop and may pick up 3 more on the turn. when JT flops, there is a very good chance that villain has at least 4 outs with a gutshot, and it's a bad free draw to give, b/c if a K hits to give AQ the nuts, hero will (should) pay off with his stack.


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If you check behind many times he will bet out the turn no matter what hits in order to try and take it down. I would then call the turn and either call or value bet the river. In this way you get the most out of him when he has nothing and lose the least when you're crushed.

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checking behind here and then calling bets on the turn and river makes your hand vulnerable and also leaves money on the table. villain will stack off with a J here if you let him. it's true you save some chips when villain flops a monster, but i think your hand is strong enough to cross your fingers and get the chips in.

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The other nice thing about this game is metagame considerations. If you check behind on the flop sometimes with good hands, you will discourage opponents from betting the turn when you check behind the flop with nothing. This situation can be very profitable because now you can check behind on the flop when your blind steals miss to avoid a possible c-raise. Then your opponent will be more likely to check the turn to you if he hasn't hit and you will be able to pick it up with even less risk.


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i suppose that's true, but i really want to be picking up my missed steals on the flop. i don't trust the table to be paying close enough attention to (and putting so much weight on) one hand that i'm going to start checking behind a lot of my misses. checking here and showing down later will make it tougher for me to execute my prefered play of winning my misses on the flop.

[MLG]

Those are all valid points. I was not trying to claim that my line was superior to getting it all in on the flop. I was offering an alternative line that I think is equally viable. I'm not sure which line I would choose in this situation, it would depend on a lot of table factors. I would say as a general rule though, I am a lot less fearful of giving free cards than I used to be especially whn I have position.

[PrayingMantis]

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Jx has 9 outs on the flop

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What am I missing? I only see 5.

[schwza]

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Jx has 9 outs on the flop

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What am I missing? I only see 5.

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um, wow, i'm an idiot. i counted 3 J's and 3 mystery outs for the "other card" on the board that could pair.

should be 5 outs now and maybe 8 on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[11t]

You got check raised by a solid, not extremely aggressive player. What hands could he possibly hold?

I fold to the check raise.

[MLG]

thats so wrong its disturbing. thats bubbling logic right there.

[PrayingMantis]

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You got check raised by a solid, not extremely aggressive player. What hands could he possibly hold?


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He's definitely good enough to check-raise here with many hands that I beat. If you think a solid player only c/r here with sets/top 2p, I think you maybe should reconsider your idea of "solid"...

[Che]

JJ?

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Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously.

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I think it is odd that everyone's talking about TT/55/Jx in this thread, but no one is mentioning JJ (that I see). JJ only adds 3 more hands that would have been beating T5, but I think they need to be considered.

Perhaps you're including JJ in Jx, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Oh well, I guess it really doesn't change the play of the hand, but I just thought it was an unusual omission.

Later,
Che