$109 tourney, T5s hand

[PrayingMantis]

$109 tourney, about 25 left out of 150, I'm about 5th or so, second stack in the table. I wasn't stealing much recently, didn't play too many pots, so I do it now. Chip leader at the table (2nd over all I think), a solid, not extremely aggressive, player, is sitting on the BB.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero (t14985)</font>
Button (t3727)
SB (t4008)
<font color="#C00000">BB (t18220)</font>
UTG (t5150)
UTG+1 (t8041)
MP1 (t10104)
MP2 (t12306)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1600</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t1000.

Flop: (t2950) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t4200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t13335</font>, BB calls t9135.

Turn: (t29620) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t29620) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t29620

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 5c 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Hero has 5d Td (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: BB wins t29620. </font>

I want some feedback on this hand. It's not a "could I get away from it" post, as I'd really like to hear if I played it the best possible way, or maybe like an idiot. I simply wonder if bottom 2p is enough to risk this tourney here, as the aggressor, against the only stack that can bust me, and who might not call this all-in without a hand that beats me. Any thoughts?

[woodguy]

If you haven't been too active PF why pick that hand?

The only stack that can break you is in the BB and you have a marginal, (if not poor) holding.

I understand not needing a hand to steal, but you have 8 other targets at the table who can't break you.

I go broke on this flop every time.

Regards,
Woodguy

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
If you haven't been too active PF why pick that hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, not being too active PF is actually a good reason to pick pretty much anything _sometimes_ when it's folded to you. There are 2 reasons for this: 1) people respect your PF raises 2) when you get called and hit a great flop, your hand will be well concealed, because people will not normally put you on bizzare/garbage hands if you havn't played too many pots in a while. Of course, that didn't work for me in that spot.

Playing relatively tight makes stealing with a wide range of hands, occasionally, better than if you do that while playing loose. When you play loose, your big PF hands are the ones that have more value, obviously.

[Ian J]

Obviously you have pretty much no choice but to go broke here. Preflop on Stars I think you should make a slightly larger raise. With 900 in blinds + 450 in antes you're just giving the big stacked BB or any BB odds that are too good. I've usually been coming in for around 3.5x on Stars once antes come into play. I know it wasn't the question, just something to think about for next time.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, not being too active PF is actually a good reason to pick pretty much anything _sometimes_ when it's folded to you. There are 2 reasons for this: 1) people respect your PF raises 2) when you get called and hit a great flop, your hand will be well concealed, because people will not normally put you on bizzare/garbage hands if you havn't played too many pots in a while. Of course, that didn't work for me in that spot.

Playing relatively tight makes stealing with a wide range of hands, occasionally, better than if you do that while playing loose. When you play loose, your big PF hands are the ones that have more value, obviously.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand all that and agree with your reasoning. I would use all that to attack every other blind on the board.

My point was more "why try to steal the blind of the only player who can break you with T5s"?

If I'm 2nd stack at the table I tend to avoid the one guy who can break me unless I have a good holding.

Regards,
Woodguy

[PrayingMantis]

Thanks, I've been thinking about the PF raises size quite a lot, and found out that on certain tables and conditions a slightly less than 3xBB could work quite well, even if there are antes, and even though the BB gets OK odds. But maybe the fact that it was the big-stack on the BB should have changed my raise size here. Not sure. I think he calls me here with a PP regardless if I raise ~2.5xBB or 3.5xBB. There could be some other hands that he would call for the smaller raise and fold otherwise of course.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm 2nd stack at the table I tend to avoid the one guy who can break me unless I have a good holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I partly agree with this, but not completely. Surely I'd be more happy to steal the blind from a stack that I have covered, but I don't think it is really unreasonable to attempt to steal from the big stack, who wasn't playing too loose or anything, especially if I can get away from many hands if I get reraised, or get called, not hit anything, and face resistance.

Against some very loose big stack opponents (there are many players who when playing a big stack are willing to make huge calls and raises with very marginal hands post-flop), i'll be just delighted to get a PF call and hit this particular flop, although I'm not sure I'd steal from such a player. I think the fact that he's a big stack is a bit less important than the way I think he plays, as there isn't a huge differece here if he has me coverd by 4K or I have him covered by 4k, IMO.

[lucas9000]

first, your preflop raise is too small imo.

second, with the amount of chips you and the other guy have, if i were you i definitely would not have gone all in with bottom 2-pair. considering the small-ish preflop raise, i'd expect to be shown something like jt or a set of 5s or 10s too often in this situation. would the bb really put that many chips at risk with aj/kj? i think you try to take it down on the flop, but if you get resistance you concede it and wait for a better spot, esp. against the smaller stacks who will be more desperate.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd expect to be shown something like jt or a set of 5s or 10s too often in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the toughts. But I just want to make sure that you do realize that there is only 1 possible combination for 55, and 1 for TT (for my opp to hold)? So obviously you won't be seeing these hands often here.

I do agree that JT is a hand I am more worried about (6 combinations), obviously. And I do put him in a tough spot if he has TPTK and even TP2ndK, although in this case pushing against him is probably not optimal, as I don't give him a chance to feel more comfortable about his hand. However, only calling his check-raise is dangarous with only a vulnerable bottom 2p.

Anyway, you don't give any other line of playing post-flop. I'm interested to see how you would have played it (and I gave my reasons for the "smallish" PF raise in another post in this thread).

[MLG]

How about checking behind on the flop. I like that for several reasons. If you bet the flop he folds stuff he misses, and he plays back with top pair or a hand that beats you. If you check behind many times he will bet out the turn no matter what hits in order to try and take it down. I would then call the turn and either call or value bet the river. In this way you get the most out of him when he has nothing and lose the least when you're crushed. The only times you might let him off is when he flops a J and the turn and or river are action killing cards. The other nice thing about this game is metagame considerations. If you check behind on the flop sometimes with good hands, you will discourage opponents from betting the turn when you check behind the flop with nothing. This situation can be very profitable because now you can check behind on the flop when your blind steals miss to avoid a possible c-raise. Then your opponent will be more likely to check the turn to you if he hasn't hit and you will be able to pick it up with even less risk.