$200 NL 6max flush draw and overs

[tdomeski]

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And a push by hero doesn't look like a flush draw? (who actually pushes over cards? which is the next likely hand that hero might hold after raising preflop)

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Hero didn't raise PF.



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Again, this is very read dependent and i don't think you should jump to the conclusion about his folding% when you don't know what villains range of hand to 3 bet is with.
what do you put him on?

you know against a set villain is 68:32
against a straight villian is 60:40
against 2 pair villian is ahead 57:42.

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Two pair is incredibly unlikely. I would say villain's hand range is (in order of likelihood) set, overpair, straight, two suited high diamonds (K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]).

In my opinion set and overpair are a close 1 and 2 though.

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There would be practically no folding equity against those hands do you agree?

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In my opinion there is little folding equity given any of villians hand based on the range I just layed out. That little % is enough for me to play a coinflip with him.

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When you guys say you'll fold instantly to a half pot bet when another diamond comes when you hold a set or straight, or when a 4 lands and you have a set every time is not being realistic.

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Depending on the size of the pot and the depth of the stacks I may or not fold. If you are putting your money in with bottom set on a 2 3 4 5 board with 2 diamonds you are most likely losing money.

The problem is you are trying to play this hand in a vaccum. Taking flips like this make things a whole lot easier for you in the future when you have big hands versus thinking opponents. If you play like a cookie cutter you will continue to eat small cookies.

[UOPokerPlayer]

This is a pretty easy push imo. You're ahead of his range and even if you're a coinflip, the game considerations are really important here. When opponents see you're pushing draws you get so much more action. This adds an image that you are fearless and players will be playing for their stack if they want to go against you as well. Third, playing with a big stack raises my winrate, this maybe personal though. All these reasons make it ok to take a coinflip, and as the previous posters have said, this is not one.

[ninjia3x]

"Two pair is incredibly unlikely. I would say villain's hand range is (in order of likelihood) set, overpair, straight, two suited high diamonds (K J )."

I agree with most of that, cept the overpair, first off, a over pair bigger than QQ would have reraised, and smalle overpair will not be 3 betting. I will almost discount this one by a large margin.


I think ppl push with 2 overcards and flush draw way too much, it becomes predictable to the point ppl can make a call with a wide range of hands.

There are better times to push, when you know the guy has a somewhat strong hand like top pair, where u'r push would have higher folding equity.

When you have a read that he has a set or or straight or very strong hand (as in this case), u'r better off not trying to push him off his hand but rather hit u'r outs and take his stack away later.

[tdomeski]

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I think ppl push with 2 overcards and flush draw way too much, it becomes predictable to the point ppl can make a call with a wide range of hands.

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People do call with a wide range hands because "he must be on the draw" when in fact they are usually the ones doing the drawing (trying to avoid more cards than the guy with the flush draw). This is like a pretty simple concept in games like Omaha that some people don't translate well into holdem.

[fanmail]

Villain's 3-bet probably means quite a bit of strength. If we assign him any pair, a straight or 2 over diamonds, hero is at best a coinflip against that range. I don't think a push is the best move on this flop. Who the hell 3-bets and then folds on the same street? I would call and try to catch on the turn, fold to a push otherwise.

[tdomeski]

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If we assign him any pair, a straight or 2 over diamonds, hero is at best a coinflip against that range

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This statement is ridiculously incorrect.

I don't see any reason not to push... your hand rules very hard, folding equity is fun, and calling sucks because you can't disguise your hand at all or get value from it.

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[ninjia3x]

With a bunch of low cards, 2 pairs is probably unlikely like you have stated, and i do agree.

which only narrows his possible holdings down to set/straight/or as you have mentioned KJdiamonds.
as for the latter, i think its a really bad/werid way to play it...a 3 bet thats not a push with KJdiamonds, that would be a pretty horrible move if he did do that.

Again dome, can you please explain why you think villian can hold a overpair, i just don't see a 3 bet coming for that. and it can't be QQ and higher because of the preflop action (majority of the time)

also, note that your getting 3:1 odds! don't forget that, thats pretty damn good odds for 12 outs, u only really need about 2.9:1 I think its better to just take those odds.

[tdomeski]

Pushing this type of hand just makes life so much easier in the future.