Take all rebuys?

[karlson]

A local club offers a tournament with this structure. You start with 300 chips (for $65), and can take (whenever you want, but at least by the end of the third round) two rebuys of 400 chips / $50 and at the end of the third round you can also take an add-on of 600 chips / $50.

It's a limit hold-em tournament, with the limits going 10-20,20-40,40-80,60-120,100-200,200-400,300-600,500-1k,1k-2k,2k-4k, changing every 20 minutes.

I have very little tourney experience, but it seems to me that one should take all the chips one can get, pretty much as soon as possible. Anyone disagree?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
300 chips (for $65)
two rebuys of 400 chips / $50
add-on of 600 chips / $50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really $65, or is it $50 to the prize pool, and $15 to the house? It makes a difference, because the $15 is gone, while the money that goes into the prize pool is what determines the average value of each chip in the tourney. I'm going to assume it's $50 + 15 to enter.

Well, the add-on is such a good deal, everyone should always take it. Anyone who doesn't take it has made a mistake to even enter this event. And everybody has to make the original buyin, of course. Thus, looking at these two things only, you pay $100 for T900, 11 cents per chip.

The rebuys cost $50 for T400, which is 12.5 cents per chip, or MORE than the average cost of the non-rebuy (buyin + addon) chips. Thus, you should take as few rebuys as possible, preferably none, as you're paying almost 14% more per chip for the rebuy chips as for your other chips.

Now, this all assumes you're a player of average skill in this event. If you're well above average, then you should take all the rebuys you can, because those chips, IN YOUR HANDS, are worth more than their nominal value. So, if you're enough better than the field, you can buy chips that cost more than average, and still turn a profit on that purchase, because you will win enough more than average to make up the difference.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Scottnyce]

I have a similiar question with a tournament a friend of mine is hosting.

Its $150 buy in. That gets T1000 chips.
A rebuy up to the third hour. $100 gets another T1000.

The $150 goes toward the food, drinks, etc....my guess 125 of that sees the prize pool.

The field will be made of up average to below average players with a solid player or two mixed in. So I expect lots of two card combinations showing up as winning hands the first couple of rounds, if not the entire tournament. What would your strategy be going into this jungle as far as play in the early stages and as far as the re buy.

Any and all advise/opinons would be greatly appreciated.

[karlson]

Thanks much, Greg. Interesting post.

Yes, the 65 is 50+15, but the house throws in an extra 1000. Last time we had about 80 players, so I guess almost all ($12.5) of the 15 went to the prize pool.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well, the real trick is to calculate (or estimate) the total number of chips AFTER all buys are made and the total money in the prize pool. Then you just do the math to figure out the average value of each chip.

If the rebuys or addons or whatever you want to call any optional purchase sell you chips at this price, buying them is EV neutral. If they sell you chips at below this average price, it is +EV to buy them, etc.

Since the added money doesn't correlate in a linear manner with the number of entrants, you'll have to estimate going in how many people are likely to enter, how many of them will take the addon, and how many rebuys they will each take on average. Add the $1000, and do the math.

Or, if you have a big enough ego, you just assume you're so much better than average that the more chips the better at almost any price, and you rebuy as much as possible.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
Or, if you have a big enough ego, you just assume you're so much better than average that the more chips the better at almost any price, and you rebuy as much as possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you have a huge ego you'll assume you can win without buying any extra chips!

I hate structures like this. They scream of false advertising...the only way someone doesnt go in for all of the rebuys/addons is if they win a couple of huge ones early on, so just be upfront and sell all the chips in the beginning.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate structures like this. They scream of false advertising...the only way someone doesnt go in for all of the rebuys/addons is if they win a couple of huge ones early on, so just be upfront and sell all the chips in the beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do that? If the structure makes the rebuys/addons mandatory (from an EV perspective), then giving people a chance to NOT take them gives them an extra chance to make a mistake. I like giving most of my opponents that extra chance.

I see very good players at Foxwoods who don't take the final addon unless it will make a significant increase in their stack size. Since they are well above average in their decision-making with cards, they are hurting their EV with this decision.

My personal favorite is the guy's who talk about their return on investment (ROI). It goes like this. I've got T2000, and spent $80 to get them (they spent $60 + $20 vig to get T500, and won the rest). Why should I spend $80 more and only get T1000 more in chips? That seems like a bad investment to them.

My response? Who cares what you've spent. If you spend $80 on that T1000, will you increase your average return by more than $80, or by less than $80? If it's more, then you should addon, because you will make a larger profit by doing so. If the extra variance this adds to your bankroll is too much for your bankroll, then this tournament was too big for your bankroll to begin with.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[trillig]

If new to the scene, take initial rebuys, and if u struggle early sure one rebuy is ok by me, after that, NO WAY!

Until you are very experienced, don't invest too much in...

$50 here and $50 there and etc etc is going to add up to a lot and if you never made the cash, likely to be final table only or worse.... That's an expensive night out...

The money gets to be a lot less valuable in a few rounds after you pay for it...

I was in my first live NO LIMIT last night and rebuys got you 300 chips (basic start amount) but by round 6 that was insignificant.

I went out on my big blind of 1500! with 300 ante per hand! [final 2 tables though]

I made initial rebuy at the start and that was it.

-t

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If you're not willing to take any rebuys where it is economically correct to do so, then you shouldn't have entered the tourney in the first place. Or, you should admit that you're not playing because you have a positive expectation of profit, but for some other reason(s).

If experience is your primary motivator, you'd be better off choosing a non-rebuy event.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[slamdunkpro]

There IS another way to look at it except it mostly applys to satallites vs susper sats. For example for the Borg open they had both Sats and SS. The Sats were $500 single table and the SS were $100 with rebuy and addon up to 150 players.

Depending on your skill level you may opt to play the single sat were you invest $500 up front and have to best 9 players vs playing the SS with at least 1 rebuy and the add ($300) and have to best 12-15 players to win a seat.