I KNOW I'm getting checkraised...

[Danenania]

It's an understandable thought to have, it's just that no good player is checking this turn with a pair unless it's a misclick or he is seriously out to lunch. This to me decreases the odds that he's really a good player by a lot and correspondingly ups his potential hands to the point that I'm NOT giving a free card with 88 on such a dangerous board.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the turn and free showdown. If you 3 bet the turn you will most likely make him fold AK/AQ etc. I

[/ QUOTE ]
if yuu 3 bet he is getting 10/1 on the turn to call,no way is an ace high folding here

[DMBFan23]

Jeff thinks he should be betting A high on the turn because he might have the best hand, you think he should be checking it with outs. but, you'll have pairs here a lot too. so...

[ QUOTE ]
This to me decreases the odds that he's really a good player by a lot and correspondingly ups his potential hands to the point that I'm NOT giving a free card with 88 on such a dangerous board.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe villain has AA and figures he's on a freeroll if you check behind Ax and you might call it on the river, with the nice benefit that he gets to c/r you if you have any pair and get called down. also you might bet your A high and then you call with the overcard and gutshot.

he knows you're not going to raise him on the turn except with maybe KK after the way the action has gone down so far, so he makes an extra bet versus betting. especially if he has the As, I really think check raising the turn with AA is a decent play here, especially if you can parlay that into some free cards OOP later.

[Danenania]

It's possible I suppose but A.) I would expect AA to usually c/r the flop. Leading isn't bad but c/ring is much more common. So I think the lead shows some weakness. B.) Checking still isn't a good play. Considering OP's claim of 99% certainty of a looming c/r, it seems like a pretty transparent attempt. And we've seen in this thread that even many 2+2ers are considering checking behind with a PP. It simply gives up too much value against hands that would call a bet but check behind when checked to. C.) AA is not really "freerolling" against Ax. Freerolling means you are tied and only you have outs to win. In this case AA is beating Ax and the Ax has 4 outs to take away half the pot. There's a big difference.

[DMBFan23]

I dunno, it seems like the fact that the lead shows weakness sets up the turn c/r pretty well, since even though Jeff 'knew' the c/r was coming, he couldn't really read the hand well enough to not bet and ppl hate giving any free cards

and yeah, you're definitely right about the 'freeroll'. how I should have phrased it was "not worried about giving a free card especially if he'll bet it on the turn some portion of the time anyway, will call on the river sometime, and we'd love for him to spike an A or his kicker."

[Mig]

If he has AA and he thinks the other guy has a pair or A high, on such a board he doesn't have to check the turn to have the other guy call a river bet. Most players will call down with A high and any pocket. You don't have to give free card...

[DMBFan23]

yeah but if they'll always bet a pocket pair, I make an extra bet by checkraising. AA should not be worried about free cards costing them the pot, no one has more than 4 outs and those will be to a chop.

too much of a 'no free card' mindset lately IMO. in many cases you get that money back in other spots and you don't deal with as many "OMG he raised me on the turn because I wanted to not give a free card what do I do now" situations. of course you have to balance everything so I'm not saying always give free cards. it's all about balancing that concept with getting your ass to showdown, inducing bluffs, letting peole catch up to a second best, going for a checkraise, etc.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

too much of a 'no free card' mindset lately IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree; there seems to be a lot of near mindless betting with A high on the turn in multiway pots.

[pudley4]

He checked the river. I figure his hand range now is about 66-KK so I check behind and luck out when he shows me 77.

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I felt lost this whole hand.