4 flush in BB - Page 2

d10 · #11 07-10-2005, 10:15 PM

I didn't have any read on UTG, so I assumed him to be a typical 3/6 SH player, meaning incapable of 3 betting a check raise without a monster. Given that board I wasn't too worried about it.

krishanleong · #12 07-11-2005, 12:29 AM

I check the turn.

Krishan

d10 · #13 07-16-2005, 07:55 PM

What I'm thinking on the turn is that most players will see the check on the turn correctly as a missed draw rather than a second check raise attempt. If anyone has an A, they won't want the turn getting checked through. All but the weakest players will bet, and of course I'll call. If I bet out, I think it's unlikely I'll be raised.

So given the case that anyone has a hand that they like, I have no fold equity either way, and I'll be putting in 1 bet either way, so I think checking and betting have very similar values. If this is true, then it doesn't matter how likely it is that someone has this type of hand. If betting and checking have exactly the same value, I could be 99% sure that someone has an A but still be correct to bet if betting has a +EV that other 1% of the time.

Given the other case that nobody has a hand yet, I'm giving up a lot of fold equity by checking the turn. I can fold out a huge range of better hands by betting both the turn and a blank river. The times when neither opponent has a hand that they feel comfortable taking to showdown, betting is clearly the best play on the turn, and I don't think that requires much further explanation.

An interesting question is how many hands fall between these two groups? That is, hands that someone won't feel comfortable about betting on the turn if checked to them, but hands that they don't intend on folding without a showdown? In this case I don't think there are many of these hands. Mostly because I'd be screaming out flush draw if I checked the turn, so anyone with any decent hand will bet to avoid giving me a free card. Maybe a very weak ace. One of the smaller pairs as well but since 1 player raised PF and the other cold called it's unlikely I'll be seeing that. It would be these hands that would make checking the turn clearly correct, but I don't think my opponent will hold this type of hand very often.

I'm not convinced yet that checking the turn is the best play, and if it is I think it's close. Comments are welcome.

vetman81 · #14 07-17-2005, 02:40 AM

I play this hand the exact same way. I think the flop CR is standard. Even if you get 3bet, there is probably a good chance that at least one if not both of the others will call you, and you can just call down with your draw.

The turn is the trickiest part of the hand, but I love the reasoning given here to support a bet. The river bet is a given since it is the only way you can win. NH.

[ QUOTE ]

What I'm thinking on the turn is that most players will see the check on the turn correctly as a missed draw rather than a second check raise attempt. If anyone has an A, they won't want the turn getting checked through. All but the weakest players will bet, and of course I'll call. If I bet out, I think it's unlikely I'll be raised.

So given the case that anyone has a hand that they like, I have no fold equity either way, and I'll be putting in 1 bet either way, so I think checking and betting have very similar values. If this is true, then it doesn't matter how likely it is that someone has this type of hand. If betting and checking have exactly the same value, I could be 99% sure that someone has an A but still be correct to bet if betting has a +EV that other 1% of the time.

Given the other case that nobody has a hand yet, I'm giving up a lot of fold equity by checking the turn. I can fold out a huge range of better hands by betting both the turn and a blank river. The times when neither opponent has a hand that they feel comfortable taking to showdown, betting is clearly the best play on the turn, and I don't think that requires much further explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]