How to play against people you know are drawing

[Josh Chud]

Ive recently been on a pretty bad run of cards, and most of these scenarios where i have lost the biggest chunk has been overbetting pots against hands i know are drawing to flushes and straights etc. I play in home games in atlanta and the action here against the type of players im talking about is ridiculously loose. There is a big group of them that play any 2 cards before the flop just to hit. anyways, my friends have decided i reevaulate my plays so im here posting to see how anyone would play it differently.

2-5 NL Game, Avg stack is 500-600 dollars, you are holding about 185$.
You have QQ UTG. Raise to 25$. 2 Callers (1st to call is generally tight, doesnt call raises without *something*, other one on the button plays *anything*).

Flop is 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Pot has 75$.

My Play: I know this hand has probably hit my ridiculously stupid friend on the button. But lets assume for the moment that he has not hit the winner and is drawing (holding a 6 or 2 clubs). So i feel the right play here is to not give anyone odds to draw, i know this flop is dangerous, and i bet 100$ (~70$ left).

Anyways he puts me all in with 66 and hits an 8 on the turn.

But is there anything i can really do here? If i go all in he calls right? and if i bet something small like 50-75, he *should* call, so is my only mistake not having more money in front of me???

Next Hand:
You have 200$ in front, avg stack is 200-300$.

Very loose action player (he's too rich for his own good, always donating) raises utg to 15$, 2 calls, and i look down and see A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I call, as well as 1 behind.

Pot is about 70$.
Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Raiser bets approx 25$. Ive played with him a ton of times, he's clearly hit a heart draw here. But whats interesting is a tight player behind him cold calls. This flop is just too ragged for him to be holding anything but a set, two pair alongside of me, or a flush draw.

My Play: I put the cold caller on a flush draw. This reduces our opponents outs to just 6! Becuase they are each holding 2 hearts (4 in their hand, 2 on the flop = 7 outs) and the Ace of hearts makes me a boat, so 6 outs. So a raise is definately in order here. But how much? The pot is now almost 100$. Pot Odds dictate i need to raise well over that, so i raised my remaining stack, approx 175$. and got called by 89hearts (the cold caller) who is on a Gut shot SF Draw. and hits a heart on the river to win. It was admitted to me by the raiser that he too was holding hearts and the winning hand had he called. So i was right, 6 outs. Did i overplay this hand?

Now my friends claim that against very loose players a more conservative approach is prudent. Allow them to see the turn for cheap or free. And then bet them out on the turn. Because bad players feel like a draw with 2 cards to come has greater percentage of hitting than what it actually is (i have asked many of these players what the odds are that they think they will hit their flush and they have all said no less than 50%) But even most "gamblers" will not gamble with one card to come if you make it too expensive. Whats amazing is that recently my friend told me he bet 200$ into a 900$ pot on the turn and the guy on the flush draw folded. Now they actually have odds to draw to the flush and they dont!

Final Hand:
You have 200$. Player to your right has 200$
its folded around, and he raises to 15$ You look down to find AK. Ive been playing with this guy for about 3 hours and ive picked up alot of tells... first, he almost *never* raises. In 3 hours i saw him limp with J's, T's, 9's, A9s and lower. But he was willing to raise an Strong Kicker like AK-AJ. #2. He always bet 50$ when he had a hand, and checked when he didnt.

So, he raises to 15$, and i reraise to 35$. We see the flop heads up and it comes: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Fish is first to act and bets 50$.

My Play: This confirms my suspicions. His raised seemed weak to me from the start, and the fact that he meakly cold called my reraise has me putting him on AQ. I think about it for awhile and realize he will call any bet i put out there. So why is all in not the right play? we have the same stack, i know he will call, and he only has 3 outs! As opposed to previous hands, (ie hand 1, where it was actually only 60/40 after the flop), our friend the fish is a HUGE dawg. So i put him all in and he calls, turns over AQ and hits a Q on the river.


So... overplayed? too fast? suggestions? what's my line on these three hands? If you think that ive just gotten unlucky and things will turn around, hey im with you, but my losses have now amassed to over 3000$ in last 3 weeks playing this way. so its been pretty ugly.

[elus2]

i don't understand how you're able to narrow the hand ranges of your opponent to a specific holding (the two flush draws in hand 2 and AQ in hand 3).

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand how you're able to narrow the hand ranges of your opponent to a specific holding (the two flush draws in hand 2 and AQ in hand 3).

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause he´s a poker wiz and only reason he is loosing is because the pokergods are against him...

[Slappz]

I dont understand what the problem is? Your getting the money in as a favorite and your complaining that they are calling you? Obviously your not gonna be 100% to win, but everytime they call with their flush draw you make money. so dont worry about a few suckouts, and just keep puttin them all in if theyre gonna call as underdogs.

If youve dropped 3000 in this game, the problem has to be more than just suckouts, these players are begging to give you money. take a closer look at ur game.

[Josh Chud]

That is the exact kind of unconstructive criticism i'd like to avoid MoDOH. Its not hard to put a man on AQ when he bets 50$ every time he is holding top pair. Call it poker instict, if you're so awesome you should be able to pick up on these things some times too. Anyways let me make myself clear. I am the one arguing to my friends that i am always happy to have my money in the middle as a favorite, even if 2-1 isn't *huge* favorite or even in the case of the 6's 60-40 isn't what i call very favorable. However i have had a good instinct about knowing someone is behind and knowing when they will call, etc. My friends argue that you almost dont want them to call, which is statistically incorrect but still understandable. The true nature of the question is wether or not i am trapped into playing it only one way. And after a few days of thinking about it im beginning to think that the only thing i am a victim of is not having more chips in front of me so that i can afford to make them pay more. And while you'd think maybe there was something wrong with my game, and im not arguing that there isnt, because there is always room for improvement in everyone. I can literally write out the other 12 scenarios where i put 200$+ on the line and lost as a favorite in this last 3 weeks. 15 200$ all ins add up... they add up to what ive said ive lost. And i will admit, i made a 450$ mistake recently with AA didn't need to happen. So yes i wasn't mistake free this week.

[kagame]

flush draws on the turn dont do so well

just something to think about

[chuddo]

i am not related to this person in any manner. just to clarify.

a piece of advice: brevity is a good thing on a forum.

[elus2]

by your description AJ would also have been just as likely.

[greywolf]

when you know that your up against one or two flushdraw and you dont have enough money to charge them on to see both turn and river you should smoothcall the flop and go allin if the turn is a blank.

Of course the best play is to have more money at the table so you can charge them more on both flop and turn.

[BlueBear]

Are these bad beat posts? You got the money in with the better hand in all cases. Do not be "results-orientated" get all caught up with the actual results. Nuff said.