AF at Ultra-Loose/Passive tables...

[Schwartzy61]

I'm currently playing the Sporting Bet .25/.50 tables clearing their free $100. And while I'm hating the variance, I am loving the action at this site. I guess this is what Miller was talking about in SSH when he mentions loose games having 6-8 people on the flop. 75% average to the flop very little pre flop raising going on and generally no aggression post flop without two pair or better. Heck a lot of people are calling down with two pair. You probably get 4 or 5 to the turn calling two bets, and 3 to the river. I've had rivers capped 4 ways. 4 people put in 4 bets on a river with 3 to a flush on the board!!!

In this environment I have had trouble with the overcards obviously and it seems with game conditions such as these drawing hands are where it's at. Also, since just about anyone calls two, but generally never raise it is next to impossible to accurately predict a bet and thus protect your hand in any manner. It seems like you are value betting or calling, chasing a draw.

Such being the case I wonder if you would expect your aggression factor to be lower. At least on the flop, I will generally bet out if my hand looks best but not THE best. And if I have what looks like the absolute best a checkraise always gets everyone to pay two bets. The players here are very easy to read. There aren't any hand histories so it is impossible to check actual numbers. I just feel myself being more passive on the flop and then ramping it up on the turn and river when things look okay.

I was just thinking, the only way to really keep aggression up is to raise in just about any drawing situation building a pot, but a lot of the time those "protecting your hand scenarios" just don't exist. Players call anyway, or there are so many players to the flop, the odds would justify a call anyhow, even when these people have no idea what they are doing. I saw 42o take down two pots in a row, and those people weren't in blinds.

So do these conditions increase or decrease Aggression?

Should probably add, I don't think in 16 hours of play I have seen more than a handful of pots get folded out after the flop. Almost everything goes to the river with at least 3 people...

[thesharpie]

I don't see a reason why your flop aggression should be low at these types of games. There are more chances to bet and raise draws for value, and raises usually earn free cards.

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a lot of the time those "protecting your hand scenarios" just don't exist. Players call anyway, or there are so many players to the flop, the odds would justify a call anyhow, even when these people have no idea what they are doing.

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There will be more scenarios where you should wait until the turn to raise as the pots are so huge, but you should still be raising the flop to "protect" your hand if it cuts down their odds enough.

It's annoying when they call when they shouldn't but you don't mind as they're making a mistake when they do this. If you raise the flop and someone calls 2 cold and hits runner runner to beat you, you made money over the long run.

When you raise your hand for protection you gain when they call and when the fold. When they call with improper odds you make money off of that over the long run. When they fold correctly you saved yourself from losing the pot.

[jrz1972]

I think you're misunderstanding what Miller means by "protecting your hand." Just because they won't fold doesn't mean you can't protect. In fact, the Fundamental Theorem argues strongly for flop aggression precisely when you know you opponents are going to make incorrect calls.

In these kinds of games, you just have to accept that TP isn't going to win as often, but you will win some ridiculously large pots when your big preflop hands do hold up. High EV but also high variance.

[Fantam]

I havent had the pleasure of playing in any games like this since I had my introduction to poker via the free play money games.

I would consider that you should be looking to limp in with a lot of suited connectors and pocket pairs, so that when you make your draws and sets, you get paid off big.

With strong top pair hands like AA-TT and AK,AQ (possibly also AJ,KQ), I think you should still be raising PF as much as you can. Even though you will win with these hands less often in multiway pots, the size of the pots will be bigger when you do and overall you will win more $ than if the pots had been kept short-handed.

Also, if the players are coming in with absolutely anything, then I think that you can afford to play more marginal top pair hands like AT,KJ,KT,QJ,QT,JT ,although I expect that it will still be best if you dont play these from EP.

[itsmesteve]

I don't think the overall effect on aggression should be too drastic assuming you very often can't protect your hand because you should be pumping draws mush more often w/ 5+ players in the pot. Your equity will more often be higher than your fair share.

Because pumping is done by raising or betting, not by calling your AF shouldn't be too terribly different, i think.

Also, though i don't often practice this myself, seat selection could help protect your hand if you can sit behind an aggressive player who likes to bet/raise flops. this will allow you to raise your made hands and face the field with two cold, which should help, from time to time.

What is your AF? How many hands? thanks. . . good luck