Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Tournament Poker > Multi-table Tournaments

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-06-2005, 03:32 PM
allenciox allenciox is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 105
Default Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

The two hands have many similarities. I will present the hands, ask what you would do, and then after some people respond, talk about a possibly emergent principle...

Hand # 1: This comes from the 75k guaranteed Paradise $30 rebuy tournament from Monday evening. We were on the bubble. There were 140 people out of 1240 remaining, top 110 get paid. I have a slightly above average stack of $51k. Blinds are 2k,4k with a 200 ante, so pot starts at 7k. I was only moved to this table 3 hands ago, and I have never played against any of the relevant players before (I always hate it when other people say they have no reads, so I cringe to admit it here).

The CO (84k chips) limps. SB has 23k left after posting, BB 25k. What do you do with the AT of diamonds on the button? Think through this before looking at what I write below.





Two things occur to me: If I raise here I pot-commit myself and I am likely to only be called when I am behind. Since I am in-position on the button, it feels easier to limp as well and see a flop. So I limp, the SB completes, and the BB checks his option.

Pot:17k
Flop: Th 9h 3s.

Both blinds check, the CO bets 25k. What hands do you put the CO on? Note that a call pot-commits you. Do you hold 'em or fold 'em?

Hand #2: This comes from the same paradise tournament a day later (last night). About half the field is gone, blinds are 100/200 with a $25 ante, I am below average with a stack of 6500. In this case, I do have reads. Everybody folds to the CO+1 (6000TC), who is a fairly loose aggressive player, who makes continuation bets but is smart enough to back off when he is beat. He raises to 600. The CO folds. I have AJo on the button. Should I fold, call, or pot commit myself with a reraise? Again think through it.








For exactly the same reasons mentioned earlier, I coldcall the raise. Both blinds fold and we are heads-up.

Pot: 1750 Flop: 7 3 2 rainbow.

The CO+1 bets 1000. What do you do here? My analysis and results will follow some responses.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-06-2005, 03:51 PM
wizard wizard is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 9
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

You're right, the hands are interesting but I don't believe that the hands are the same. I remember reading once that you should give a player on whom you have no reads a lot of credit until you have a chance to watch him. A limp from the CO seat is either a monster or a passive inexperienced player but your hand is not all that bad so I agree with your limp. After the flop, his bet is the right amount to make it wrong for a flush draw to continue so it looks like he is experienced and is on a huge hand. You should probably lay this down. Now, in practice, I probably push but think that it is wrong.
Hand 2 I believe is more cut and dried. I think that AJ is too weak to call a raise. You might be ahead but I think that you will be behind more often than not.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-06-2005, 04:03 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

My guess in the first situation, the pusher has a flush draw. You do have TPTK, but he'll have a better draw than you.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-06-2005, 05:02 PM
jcm4ccc jcm4ccc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 116
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

Hand #1: I push without a second thought. 11k in the pot, 51k in your hand, great situation.

You're not entirely correct that you will only get called by better hands if you push. The CO might put you on a steal. However, in general, you are correct. But that doesn't matter , because you almost certainly have the best hand here. You are worried about AJ - AK, and TT - AA. If the CO has any of these hands, do you think he is limping? Very unlikely. Now, if the BB or SB wake up with a monster, well, that's poker.

You are pushing because 11k is a big pot, and you don't want to have to give that pot up on the flop when your hand doesn't hit.

But you limped, and now you have TPTK on the flop. The big stack overbets with a draw-heavy flop. I'm pushing my chips in the middle.

Hand #2: I call preflop, fold on the flop, expecting to see an overpair.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-06-2005, 05:07 PM
PFrese PFrese is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 25
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

First hand - I would have raised it to 10K preflop to knock out the BB and SB. Isolate the CO. Once the flop comes, I push.

Second hand - Push. He is stealing. snap it off and stack his chips. Your hand is most likely the best hand against this type of play.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-06-2005, 05:09 PM
Lunch Lunch is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 0
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

Hand #1
I find it very suspiscious that he bets 25k into a 17k pot. Sure he's eliminating someone's flush draw pot odds, but I think this is just big stack poker pushing small stacks out of a pot. I think you're ahead here. I'd give him credit for a draw, but not a made hand.

Hand #2
A board of 7 2 3 isn't likely to hit him, even if he is loose. If you decide that he's just continuation betting with high cards I'd reraise, try to convince him that you have an overpair to the board. This of course would get you into a lot of trouble if he reraises, as you're comitting a large amount to your stack. But if you think he'll lay down his hand if he thinks he's beat, it may be a chance you should take.
Of course if it was me I probably would've folded PF. But I'm still learning.

I think there's definatly a lesson to be learned.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-06-2005, 06:32 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

Hand 1 - Most of the time I see a big stack limp in LP around the bubble its because he wants to see a cheap flop and take the blind's money without committing chips preflop in a stealing position. Jack it up preflop. As played, push the flop. I think he has a draw here or overs, KQ, QJ, J10, Q10, all make sense.

Hand 2 - What makes you think your pot committed to a reraise? You already read CO+1 as a LAG, why not test him? I don't mind your line, but I go with my read and make it 1800 preflop. You will still have 4800 behind, definitely enough.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-06-2005, 07:24 PM
Masquerade Masquerade is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 49
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

First hand I like the limp for the reasons you give. I fold on the flop as it's not necessary to go broke with TPTK when youre in good shape in a tourney. If he's buying the pot, so be it.

Second hand I'm folding AJo pre-flop to the raise. However you've called and missed the flop totally. I fold here too. Is this a trick question?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-06-2005, 07:41 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

First hand: I don't mind the limp here on the button. On the flop, the CO bet looks like a medium pocket pair (55-99), or else a couple of overcards, possibly KJ or KQ or QJ. If he has any of these and they aren't hearts, you should be able to push him off the hand. If he has 2 overcards and a flush draw his large bet doesn't make sense because he wouldn't want to lose all of his customers with a huge draw like this. I think a push is your best bet here.
Hand 2: I don't like the pre-flop call with A-J. Unless you are positive that you can outplay your opponent post-flop, i think you should have folded here pre-flop. His bet on the flop looks like a standard continuation bet, so you may be able to push him off the hand with a raise, but if he comes back over the top, you're in a ton of trouble.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-06-2005, 08:20 PM
11t 11t is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
Default Re: Two difficult hands: Is there a lesson to be learned here?

I push hand 1 preflop and push the flop.

I call preflop hand 2 and if I push or fold this flop. If he was LAG from the co+1 then I'd push but if there was a good chance he had a lower pair and was willing to go to the felt I would fold.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.