what kind of pre-flop % do you look for?? and other Q's

i have played a fair amount of both full table and 5 player shorthanded?

given that when you choose a table, the two stats you usually have are preflop % and average pot size, i was wondering what a good preflop % to look for (from the table, not your own) is.

in full table ($3-$6 for example), i find 40%+ for opponents is o.k., 50%+ is excellent, but i barely ever see it above that where i play.

but never seen much talk about shorthanded. what % do you guys salivate at??? here's what i was thinking. i think i'm VPIP of 25%, then see some flops fpr free from blinds, so that's probably another 10% to bring my seeing flop % to 35%. i guess maybe the cutoff for very juicy shorthanded tables is 60%.

60%, does that seem like a good number for juicy shorthanded tables???

a few follow-ons:

is there much difference between 5handed and 6handed?? seems like that 20% (6 is 20% more than 5) difference is pretty substantial. and abdul and others have mentioned 5-6 being sort of the key dividing line between full table and shorthanded.

what do people look for in average pot?? haven't really figure this out. raises = more $ per player but fewer players and presumably better players.... trying to figure out tradeoff and combinations of preflop % and average pot size.

i've done o.k. at shorthanded (although the swings can be mind-boggling), but i do agree with one comment i saw. loose players who don't adjust from full table are almost playing the correct cards by accident. although generally they are not aggressive..

if i see alot of aggression at shorthanded table, i seriously think of leaving. if these players fold alot, then i'm outta there.

my thing i noticed about shorthanded is that your loose opponents can get frustrated pretty quickly and will tighten up eventually, meaning often the pots aren't big enought to beat the rake.. often have to wait for new players and bully them for 45 minutes until they leave too.

any thoughts?? really just wondering about opponent preflop % in shorthanded. what should i look at as standard? i have seen 75%-80% preflop which seems way too high.... do you want to maybe call instead of raise more hands just to keep these opponents playing so loose? i think raising causes the opponents to tighten up, and then no more 75% preflop.

[Catt]

I ignore table averages and look to specific player stats and my relative position to those players if I sit at the table. If I find an open seat at a table with a juicy buddy, but my seat is not ideal (two players to my right and then buddy) I might be persuaded to sit before I have a statistical read on those two players if I see them cold-calling or open-limping pre-flop. Since my statistical reads pop up pretty quickly (assuming I have players in a DB), I usually sit or move on pretty quickly.

I am very skeptical that table average means much of anything in terms of table / seat selection. And I am wholly skeptical that just VPIP is a good indicator of seat value.

catt, thanks for the response!

i play position in general, but not sure why i want the weak player just to my right? is that because in shorthanded, you want someone who won't steal blinds on the button.... i don't think i use position enough, obviously not as much as you.

and i don't play at pokertracker.com compliant site, so can't use buddy list yet.

one thing i will say is that preflop %'s often don't seem correct after you sit at the table.

[w_alloy]

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really just wondering about opponent preflop % in shorthanded. what should i look at as standard?

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In both my 3/6 and 5/10 6m databases the average vpip is 42%. The average players is a bit over 5.

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really just wondering about opponent preflop % in shorthanded. what should i look at as standard?

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In both my 3/6 and 5/10 6m databases the average vpip is 42%. The average players is a bit over 5.

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alloy, thanks!!!! ... so, vpip = 42% and then probably pick up 7%-10% free looks from big blinds would get the player to 50%-52% pre-flop. i thought it would be alot higher for 5 player game. my site seems to have a fair # of 70%-80% preflop games, although people tighten up fast when you start raising and winning some.

[Catt]

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catt, thanks for the response!

i play position in general, but not sure why i want the weak player just to my right? is that because in shorthanded, you want someone who won't steal blinds on the button.... i don't think i use position enough, obviously not as much as you.

and i don't play at pokertracker.com compliant site, so can't use buddy list yet.

one thing i will say is that preflop %'s often don't seem correct after you sit at the table.

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Well, I use a buddylist hosted by the site in question (Party skin).

I generally want one or more loose and passive players to my direct right. I want them to act before most of the time so that I can (1) isolate them with pre-flop raises when I have decent hands, and (2) limp behind with very marginal hands that are worth playing only if I know others in the pot are bad and passive. Their being passive adds to the value of these marginal hands -- I can be a great deal more confident of buying a free river via a flop raise than I can with more knowledgeable or aggressive players acting before me. Add a too-tight player on my left, and I'm going to get the button way more than once per orbit because the tighty will fold too much facing even a limp and will definitely fold too much to my raises. Having these guys open-limp on the button when you're in the blinds is also helpful.

Most pre-flop VPIP averages I see (both PT and other site-based averages) just take a simple average of the tables VPIP. If you have a buddy-lister 60 VPIP, 2 35 VPIPs, and 2 22 VPIPs, your table average is going to show 35%, but if they are sitting in that order and the open seat is between the 2 20 VPIPs and the buddy (with the buddy on your left), it's a really crappy table for you. Similarly, if you've got the buddy and then 2 35 / 25's with a very aggressive post-flop game, you're just not going to isolate the buddy ofetn enough post-flop and in fact you're going to get pushed off all your marginal hands post-flop.

I really evaluate a table based on a compendium of stats on the players, any notes on their post-flop game that I already have, and the open seat or seats relative to the positions of the other players.

thanks for that response too, catt!

i look forward to getting on new site (probably party, empire (party skin???) or pacific) where i can use poker tracker. looking for good selection of easy tables (heard that some places are overrun with multitabling, classic economic competition to take $$$$ from the fish)

so far, i've just focussed on playing smart poker and not so much reading opponents (either generally or specifically), but you've taken it to much higher level... obviously i notice people play too many hands (for instance).