Specific Question For Not Ready and Others

[David Sklansky]

Sometimes I make the mistake of bring up side issues in my posts which result in replies outside my main point.
Not this time.

I think there exists in this world a certain type of person that I will define in a moment. He or she is rare but not that rare. I would like to know if Not Ready and others believe such persons exist, and if so, what do they have to say about them.

The people I speak of:

1. Believe that life is essentially meaningless if there is no Biblical type God.

2. Believe that there is no absolute right or wrong if there is no Biblical type God.

3. Believe that if there is a biblical type god, they will not be "saved" if they don't firmly believe in his existence.

(At this point let me say that I meant for the above three things to capture the essence of Not Ready's positions. If I didn't do a good job, them I would simply stipulate that you change the above as necessary to what his positions on these issues really are.)

4. In spite of the above three beliefs, they believe that a Biblical God is unlikely to exist. They are not happy about that conclusion since it makes their life more "hopeless" and more meaningless. It also scares them because they still feel that God is an unlikely possibility and they do believe that they are doomed if that unlikely possibility turns out to be true.
However it does not logically follow from having beliefs 1-3 that one must believe that God exists. These particular people for some reason, scientific or whatever, reluctantly admit to themselves that in spite of hearing and understanding the gospel, and wishing it was true, they don't think it is.

I say millions of people fall into this category. What does Not Ready have to say about them?

[Darryl_P]

I was clearly one of these people about 6-7 years ago. It bothered me greatly for obvious reasons: Rationality guides my life and rationality leads me to believe there is probably no biblical type God, but if that's the case then life is meaningless. Tough thing to digest indeed.

Then I found myself with lots of time on my hands and was able to meditate deeply about these issues. At first it was very painful but a bit later some answers came to me as if from out of the blue.

In a nutshell I was able to find God on my own, but in a lot of ways it did not resemble the God of the bible. It was more like a Force rather than a being. I felt I could communicate with it, feel part of it etc. and that cured my depression almost instantly.

Now when religious people talk about God I no longer think of a pink elephant that doesn't exist, I just think of this Force and assume they mean the same thing, even if their details don't match mine. I find it easy and painless to ignore the details (which don't match) and concentrate on the spiritual elements which are very powerful and feel a sort of kinship with religious people, even if they are far less rational about the world than I am.

I'm still a big fan (and big user) of rationality, but it has moved to number 2 on my priority list, number 1 being my relationship with God and the duties I feel I have based on His/Its expectations of me.

[goofball]

I wonder how many fall into a slightly different category. Someone who has been spoonfed the first 3 conditions and as such are mentally incapable of considering them to be false. Then, is forced to doggedly believe in the biblical type god in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary, because to not do so would force them to confront a meaningless life devoid of right and wrong. They feel such a helpless need to know and believe in the biblical god, that they prostelitize to any and all who will listen in hopes of being validated, they persecute all who don't believe like they do, and they ignore/squash evidence contrary to their belief.

[NotReady]

I've answered an lot of your questions. I will answer this if you will first answer the following:

1. Explain the meaning of the universe and justify the explanation.

2. Explain how morality is possible without an ultimate Lawgiver.

3. If there is a Biblical God, and He requires belief in Christ in order to be saved, explain how you expect to be saved without believing in Him.

[jakethebake]

This is interesting because these people are generally raised to believe (along with the first three beliefs listed) that there is a Biblical God. What is interesting is that somewhere alogn the line, they lose their belief in God for whatever reason, but do not shake these three beliefs, which leaves them with #4. It would seem they should lose those three along with losing their faith, but they don't.

[durron597]

I think Pascal's Wager is relevant to this discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

- Blaise Pascal.

[Triumph36]

I'm not going to answer these in any real way, and they weren't directed towards me, and I didn't read the other thread, but:

1. This is clearly impossible without deferring to a higher power. To explain 'the meaning of life' without doing so one would have to prove universal truths about men, a difficult if not impossible task. This does not rule out the possibility that there is no inherent 'meaning' to life.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by 'morality', but societies can construct ethics by which to live. All systems of morality limit or channel desires, and there is clearly the possibility of rational systems of morality; they will be incomplete, but they will not be fear-based either. See Plato's Gorgias for a discussion of why doing injustice is worse than suffering it, for example.

3. This is self-evident, and an attempt to back into Pascal's Wager.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
I've answered an lot of your questions. I will answer this if you will first answer the following:

1. Explain the meaning of the universe and justify the explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

To start, I don't think david claims to know the meaning of the universe. Further, I think the fact that biblical believers claim to know the meaning of the universe is what irritates david. I think its fair to say that only people who claim to know the meaning of the universe are placed with the burden of proving their claim's validity.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Explain how morality is possible without an ultimate Lawgiver.

[/ QUOTE ]


Morality may not exist in the way you think of it. Morality may not exist at all. Why does it have to? Perhaps morality is an instincutal tool for survival or a self-imposed illusion.

Also, I wonder why you think morality would be at the core of universal meaning? What evidence do you have for this?
[ QUOTE ]

3. If there is a Biblical God, and He requires belief in Christ in order to be saved, explain how you expect to be saved without believing in Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, i wouldn't expect to be saved. I don't see what this proves, though. For example, lets say there is a god and he requires belief in child molestation in order to be saved. As ridiculous as this sounds, i can't prove that this isn't the case right now, can you?. So, since this is an unprovable possibility, should i molest children just in case?

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Pascal's Wager is relevant to this discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

- Blaise Pascal.

[/ QUOTE ]


From my other post in this thread:

Lets say there is a god and he requires belief in child molestation in order to be saved. As ridiculous as this sounds, i can't prove that this isn't the case right now, can you?. So, since this is an unprovable possibility, should i molest children just in case?

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
I've answered an lot of your questions. I will answer this if you will first answer the following:

1. Explain the meaning of the universe and justify the explanation.

2. Explain how morality is possible without an ultimate Lawgiver.

3. If there is a Biblical God, and He requires belief in Christ in order to be saved, explain how you expect to be saved without believing in Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Why must it? Find meaning in your life, your work, your family. Live your life doing things that make you happy, let the universe take care of itself.

2. To fully answer this would require a book. One thing to remember though, is that there is no universalyl accepted moral code. What's morally impermissible in society changes by location and time. It also changes from person to person. It seems, that if there were a god who was an "ultimate lawgiver" this wouldn't be the case.

3. You can't. Essentially what you've said is: A iff B, therefore, if not B than not A.