Failed screw play

Yea I see that this can be great vs good players who are on the LAG side but I feel that doing this vs a TAG that you will play like 200 hands against at the most is kind of pointless. Bet your strong hands and check the weak ones until you develop a history. Or do you think this play is so powerful that I should do it kind of often, like 1/3 of my strong hands?

[donger]

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Yea I see that this can be great vs good players who are on the LAG side but I feel that doing this vs a TAG that you will play like 200 hands against at the most is kind of pointless. Bet your strong hands and check the weak ones until you develop a history. Or do you think this play is so powerful that I should do it kind of often, like 1/3 of my strong hands?

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HEPFAP recommends checking the turn A LOT vs aggro players, for screwplay reasons:
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Therefore, to avoid giving your hand away, you also must check a lot of good hands. Specifically, when first to act, you probably should check on fourth street as much as 60 percent of the time with your good and bad hands alike, as long as free cards are not a major problem and your opponents are aggressive.


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Yea I see that this can be great vs good players who are on the LAG side but I feel that doing this vs a TAG that you will play like 200 hands against at the most is kind of pointless. Bet your strong hands and check the weak ones until you develop a history. Or do you think this play is so powerful that I should do it kind of often, like 1/3 of my strong hands?

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HEPFAP recommends checking the turn A LOT vs aggro players, for screwplay reasons:
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Therefore, to avoid giving your hand away, you also must check a lot of good hands. Specifically, when first to act, you probably should check on fourth street as much as 60 percent of the time with your good and bad hands alike, as long as free cards are not a major problem and your opponents are aggressive.


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thx a lot!!!!! I have pretty much never done it. One more leak fixed.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[mmcd]

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Yea I see that this can be great vs good players who are on the LAG side but I feel that doing this vs a TAG that you will play like 200 hands against at the most is kind of pointless. Bet your strong hands and check the weak ones until you develop a history. Or do you think this play is so powerful that I should do it kind of often, like 1/3 of my strong hands?

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HEPFAP recommends checking the turn A LOT vs aggro players, for screwplay reasons:
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Therefore, to avoid giving your hand away, you also must check a lot of good hands. Specifically, when first to act, you probably should check on fourth street as much as 60 percent of the time with your good and bad hands alike, as long as free cards are not a major problem and your opponents are aggressive.


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JV started a thread on this subject in Mid/Hi a couple of month's back, and basically his point (that agree with) was that because of the overaggro juiced up nature of today's online games, in situations where you can screwplay the turn and get called down, you'll likely be able to bet/3-bet and get called down as well.

Personally, as far my metagame goes, for purposes of getting more bets in the pot, I prefer to checkraise flops, bet/3-bet turns, and checkraise rivers (not all in the same hand of course)

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Yea I see that this can be great vs good players who are on the LAG side but I feel that doing this vs a TAG that you will play like 200 hands against at the most is kind of pointless. Bet your strong hands and check the weak ones until you develop a history. Or do you think this play is so powerful that I should do it kind of often, like 1/3 of my strong hands?

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HEPFAP recommends checking the turn A LOT vs aggro players, for screwplay reasons:
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Therefore, to avoid giving your hand away, you also must check a lot of good hands. Specifically, when first to act, you probably should check on fourth street as much as 60 percent of the time with your good and bad hands alike, as long as free cards are not a major problem and your opponents are aggressive.


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JV started a thread on this subject in Mid/Hi a couple of month's back, and basically his point (that agree with) was that because of the overaggro juiced up nature of today's online games, in situations where you can screwplay the turn and get called down, you'll likely be able to bet/3-bet and get called down as well.

Personally, as far my metagame goes, for purposes of getting more bets in the pot, I prefer to checkraise flops, bet/3-bet turns, and checkraise rivers (not all in the same hand of course)

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So what you are saying is that you bet/3bet some of your bad cards from time to time? Seems awefully expensive.

[donger]

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Yea I see that this can be great vs good players who are on the LAG side but I feel that doing this vs a TAG that you will play like 200 hands against at the most is kind of pointless. Bet your strong hands and check the weak ones until you develop a history. Or do you think this play is so powerful that I should do it kind of often, like 1/3 of my strong hands?

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HEPFAP recommends checking the turn A LOT vs aggro players, for screwplay reasons:
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Therefore, to avoid giving your hand away, you also must check a lot of good hands. Specifically, when first to act, you probably should check on fourth street as much as 60 percent of the time with your good and bad hands alike, as long as free cards are not a major problem and your opponents are aggressive.


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JV started a thread on this subject in Mid/Hi a couple of month's back, and basically his point (that agree with) was that because of the overaggro juiced up nature of today's online games, in situations where you can screwplay the turn and get called down, you'll likely be able to bet/3-bet and get called down as well.

Personally, as far my metagame goes, for purposes of getting more bets in the pot, I prefer to checkraise flops, bet/3-bet turns, and checkraise rivers (not all in the same hand of course)

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You never get free cards when you want them this way, though. Screwplaying is better for that reason alone. It also gets an extra bet from an opponent who had planned on folding the turn, but changed course when you checked. I play 5/10 6max FWIW.

[mmcd]

No. Check/raising the turn balances check/folding. Bet/3 betting the turn is balanced by bet/folding, but that's really immaterial here. Bet/3-betting the turn is better than checkraising when you have a hand that wants more bets in the pot.

For example: If I have AK in the sb and 3-bet UTG's open, and the flop comes A 6 2. I'll bet the flop, bet the turn (and 3-bet if raised), and check/raise the river (if he just called my turn bet). The hands that UTG could hold that would definately call a turn checkraise and river bet (say AT-AQ for the sake of argument), will likely raise a turn bet and call down when you 3-bet so you make more. Other hands that may call down a turn checkraise but won't raise a turn bet (say A9-A2) will bet the river when checked to and pay off your river checkraise, so you don't really lose anything by going for the bet/3-bet on the turn.

I'm not saying you should never checkraise the turn with the lead, I'm just saying that HPFAP's advise regarding often checkraising the turn with your decent/strong hands is a bit dated since today's typical oppononents are often willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with weakish hands.

[mmcd]

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You never get free cards when you want them this way, though. Screwplaying is better for that reason alone. It also gets an extra bet from an opponent who had planned on folding the turn, but changed course when you checked. I play 5/10 6max FWIW.


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This is definately much more applicable to higher more aggressive games where you are unlikely to get free river cards anyways and your opponents are more willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with top pair ok kicker type hands. And with regard to picking up an extra bet when your opponent had planned on folding the turn, it's much more advantageous to fire the 2nd barrel more often and sometimes pick up the whole pot with the worst hand.

[Danenania]

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No. Check/raising the turn balances check/folding. Bet/3 betting the turn is balanced by bet/folding, but that's really immaterial here. Bet/3-betting the turn is better than checkraising when you have a hand that wants more bets in the pot.

For example: If I have AK in the sb and 3-bet UTG's open, and the flop comes A 6 2. I'll bet the flop, bet the turn (and 3-bet if raised), and check/raise the river (if he just called my turn bet). The hands that UTG could hold that would definately call a turn checkraise and river bet (say AT-AQ for the sake of argument), will likely raise a turn bet and call down when you 3-bet so you make more. Other hands that may call down a turn checkraise but won't raise a turn bet (say A9-A2) will bet the river when checked to and pay off your river checkraise, so you don't really lose anything by going for the bet/3-bet on the turn.

I'm not saying you should never checkraise the turn with the lead, I'm just saying that HPFAP's advise regarding often checkraising the turn with your decent/strong hands is a bit dated since today's typical oppononents are often willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with weakish hands.

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Nice post. This is my approach as well.

"Betting is underrated." -CDC

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No. Check/raising the turn balances check/folding. Bet/3 betting the turn is balanced by bet/folding, but that's really immaterial here. Bet/3-betting the turn is better than checkraising when you have a hand that wants more bets in the pot.

For example: If I have AK in the sb and 3-bet UTG's open, and the flop comes A 6 2. I'll bet the flop, bet the turn (and 3-bet if raised), and check/raise the river (if he just called my turn bet). The hands that UTG could hold that would definately call a turn checkraise and river bet (say AT-AQ for the sake of argument), will likely raise a turn bet and call down when you 3-bet so you make more. Other hands that may call down a turn checkraise but won't raise a turn bet (say A9-A2) will bet the river when checked to and pay off your river checkraise, so you don't really lose anything by going for the bet/3-bet on the turn.

I'm not saying you should never checkraise the turn with the lead, I'm just saying that HPFAP's advise regarding often checkraising the turn with your decent/strong hands is a bit dated since today's typical oppononents are often willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with weakish hands.

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Point taken. But I think you have to do some check raising to balance the check folding. On what type of hands do you do this? I could see myself doing it with flush draws and exactly a hand like you described. This 3-betting with TPTK feels too aggressive for me. Which limit do you play? I am at 3/6 and I feel that calling down is the play if I get raised with TPTK.