What Should Lebanon Do With Its Palestinian Refugees?

[nicky g]

Many pro-Israelis denounce the Arab governments that withold citzenship rights to the Palestinian refugees/descendants of refugees living in their states. I agree to an extent, although I don't think that mitigates Israel's responsibilities towards them.

But I'm curious: Many pro-Israelis are also sympathetic to the Maronite Christian community in Lebanon. Israel sided with far-right/neo-facist Maronites in the Lebanese civil war for instance.

The last thing the Maronites (as well as many other Lebanese) would want is to see hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Muslims given citizenship of Lebanon, given the country's precarious ethnic balance. So what should Lebanon do with them?

Thoughts?

[BluffTHIS!]

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far-right/neo-facist Maronites

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This characterization is from your far-left, pinko and pro-Arab-no-matter-how-many-innocents-they-kill-via-terrorism perspective.

But regarding the Palestinians, I'm sure that they want to feel at home and welcomed right? Well there is a majority Palesitinian state where they could go live. It's called JORDAN.

one cannot expect lebanon, syria etc... to give citizenship to palestinian refugees. this is particularily true in lebanon where the population is between 4-5 million. I believe that of all the countries with palestinian refugees the rights/living conditions are the worst in lebanon. In lebanon, the jobs that palestinians can hold are very limited. i've seen some of the camps, and they are pretty nasty. also seemingly well armed.
Maybe lebanon could work towards the situation in syria, where palestinians seem to have more rights. in syria, the range of jobs they can hold are alot higher, and their ability to travel is less restricted. it isn't viable in any of these unstable countries to give hundreds of thousands of poor palestinians citizenship, as most of these countries are teetering on the brink of disastor. The U.S. and france are both struggleing with immigrant problems, and boht these countries have far more rescources then lebanon, syria egypt etc...
i suppose my answer in regards to lebanon would be to work with the u.n. and various NGO's to slowly upgrade the quality of life of the refugees already in lebanon. problem is, lebanons economy is already in shambles. the wealth diparity would make a brazilian blush, and job availability is already very scarce. there is already a lot of resentment among lebanese citizens towards the government about the lack of jobs. many lebanese youth who graduate from university are forced to go to europe or the gulf to find reasonable jobs.
on second thought, scratch the semi incorporate them into lebanese society idea, it's already to messed up.(2nd highest national debt/gdp in the world.) i'd say have u.n./ngo's get to work on dispersing them throughout the region/world. it sucks, but there is no pretty answer.

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But regarding the Palestinians, I'm sure that they want to feel at home and welcomed right? Well there is a majority Palesitinian state where they could go live. It's called JORDAN.

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[/quoentry into Jordan by Palestinians is time-limited and considered for tourism purposes only. Any Jordanian citizen who is found carrying a Palestinian passport (of the sort issued by the Palestinian Authority and registered by Israel for validity) has his/her Jordanian citizenship revoked by Jordanian border agents. More recently, Jordan has restricted entry of Palestinians from the West Bank into its territory, fearing that many Palestinians would try to take up temporary residence in Jordan during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. This has caused many hardships for Palestinians, especially since 2001 when Israel discontinued permission for Palestinians to travel through its Ben Gurion International Airport, and traveling to Jordan to fly out of Amman became the only outlet for West Bank Palestinians to travel.
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clearly you've got it all figured out. this exerpt isn't completely relevant, but the point is, jordan isn't welcoming any and all palestinians with open arms.

[nicky g]

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far-right/neo-facist Maronites

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This characterization is from your far-left, pinko and pro-Arab-no-matter-how-many-innocents-they-kill-via-terrorism perspective.


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The Israelis allied themselves with the Phalangists, who named themselves after Spain's fascist Phalangists of the early 20th century. Also they were also "Arabs". So I don't see the need for your rant. Perhaps you're in need of a lie down.

"But regarding the Palestinians, I'm sure that they want to feel at home and welcomed right? Well there is a majority Palesitinian state where they could go live. It's called JORDAN."

OK, so the Palestinians uprooted from Palestine should be uprooted again and resettled in Jordan. Is this the default pro-Israeli view? What if Jordan doesn't want them? Might it not argue it's taken enough Palestinians?

[Cyrus]

Seriously...

In 1948, a large number of Palestinians went into exile. Most of them were forced out, some of them took off in fear. No one left, in any case, only to "make more money elsewhere" or to take a vacation.

The plight of those Palestinians who want to return to their homeland --or, plainly, to Israel-- is the only thing left on the table. Everything else has been won by the Israeli state; all the military and political objectives of the Israeli leaders have been met:

The Arab states are impotent militarily and politically to inhibit Israel in doing whatever it pleases; the only remaining superpower in the world continues to be an ally who supplies Israel with money and support, without questioning anything; Israel disobeys U.N. Resolutions routinely but suffers nothing out of that; Israel viollates international law routinely but is not held accountable for that; Israel builds an anachronistic Wall, like the East Germans did in the 1960s, in order to divide a land; etc, etc.

The Right To Return was discussed by Colin Powell some time ago, when Arafat was still alive. The Palestinians, by then, had accepted everything demanded by Israel (even an explicit and specific call to end the armed intifada and all armed resistance, as pronounced by the Palestinians PM, in front of Sharon and Bush II). However, Ariel Sharon demanded that Palestinian exiles should NEVER be allowed to return to Israel. Those exiles, if they will return anywhwre they will return to the "Palestinian state" -- if and when it will be established.

Hence, Israel is well on tis way to becoming the first, the only and the true model state of national purity. Some Germans of yore would be envious.

[MMMMMM]

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The Right To Return was discussed by Colin Powell some time ago, when Arafat was still alive. The Palestinians, by then, had accepted everything demanded by Israel (even an explicit and specific call to end the armed intifada and all armed resistance, as pronounced by the Palestinians PM, in front of Sharon and Bush II). However, Ariel Sharon demanded that Palestinian exiles should NEVER be allowed to return to Israel. Those exiles, if they will return anywhwre they will return to the "Palestinian state" -- if and when it will be established.

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Descendants are not exiles and can't "return" to some place they've never been. If the "right of return" is actually meant literally, then I might agree with it: any remaining Palestinians from the original expulsion, may today return. But the propaganda machine doesn't mean it literally; it wishes to overflood Israel with millions of second and third (and fourth?) generation descendants, and call that a "return."

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Hence, Israel is well on tis way to becoming the first, the only and the true model state of national purity. Some Germans of yore would be envious.

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Let the Palestinians and Arabs reform their laws which so discriminate against non-Muslims, and truly renounce their genocidal views towards the Jews; then and only then can the Jews be fairly expected to live in a mixed society with them without protection of the Jewish state.

And yet, the Jews do allow Arab/Palestinian citizens to be citizens in Israel, and those Arabs have true civil rights--which is far more than can be said for the converse.

[DVaut1]

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Descendants are not exiles and can't "return" to some place they've never been. If the "right of return" is actually meant literally, then I might agree with it: any remaining Palestinians from the original expulsion, may today return. But the propaganda machine doesn't mean it literally; it wishes to overflood Israel with millions of second and third (and fourth?) generation descendants, and call that a "return."

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There's a legitimate, philosophical discussion as to whether or not, and to what degree rights are transferred through descendants.

For instance, if your grandfather had a very valuable painting, and my grandfather stole it, and passed it down to me - do you still have a legal right to the painting? I'm arguing (and American and international courts agree) that you do - even if you never had your hands on the painting, let alone ever seen it, or even know of its existence.

I'm not sure why property ought to be treated any differently - if the concession is that Israel is 'occupying' land that rightfully belongs to others - than I see no reason why that right shouldn't be respected, even if the original owners are now dead and can't lay claim to it. There's a legitimate debate as to what kind of property rights Palestinians have there, and how sacrosanct those rights are - but that debate does not hinge on the fact that this conflict has been taking place for generations, and many of Palestinians who were alive for the Partition in '47 or the Six Days War in 67' are not alive now.

In fact, your argument seems to contradict your narrative for why Israel is created; wasn't your argument that Jews have a 'right to return' to the land of their ancestors?

Lastly, the same argument you're making is one that Palestinians make constantly - Jews have no inherent right to the West Bank, but hope to bring in masses of Jewish settlers to the area, thereby 'changing the facts on the ground', with the hopes of expelling the Palestinians who are currently there.

[Cyrus]

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Descendants are not exiles and can't "return" to some place they've never been.

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So you are saying that the Jewish descendants have no right to be in the area either. You just annulled the whole Zionist argument ! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Let the Palestinians and Arabs reform their laws which so discriminate against non-Muslims, and truly renounce their genocidal views towards the Jews; then and only then can the Jews be fairly expected to live in a mixed society with them without protection of the Jewish state.

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So, you are saying that until the Arabs, from Morocco to Iraq, become democratic, secular, non-discriminatory, etc etc, Israel should continue to reject all "roadmaps" leading to a Palestinian state and do battle with those Palestinians who want to return or stay in Israel. Wow.

...Unfailingly, every time the Palestinians accept whatever is "offered" by Israel and the United States, the barrier is raised again and new demands are presented. I'm sure your position (which would seem preposterous to any well-meaning and objective third party) will soon become official U.S. and Israeli policy. If it has not become already.

[MMMMMM]

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Let the Palestinians and Arabs reform their laws which so discriminate against non-Muslims, and truly renounce their genocidal views towards the Jews; then and only then can the Jews be fairly expected to live in a mixed society with them without protection of the Jewish state.

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So, you are saying that until the Arabs, from Morocco to Iraq, become democratic, secular, non-discriminatory, etc etc, Israel should continue to reject all "roadmaps" leading to a Palestinian state and do battle with those Palestinians who want to return or stay in Israel. Wow.

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Not that Israel should reject all roadmaps or a Palestinian state, but that the concept of millions of Palestinian descendants "returning" to Israel, which would effectively destroy the Jewish state, should be rejected. Israelis should not have to live with those who formulate dicriminatory laws denying civil rights, or whose ambition is the genocide of the Jews.