What the...? - Page 3

Ed Miller · #21 03-11-2003, 03:26 PM

I think it was a good alternative to raising preflop. Now it will be harder to put him on a hand when he calls in the future too.

Man... I disagree with you people completely. I think button played simply horribly, and I don't think it was a good play variation at all. Having AA on the button with several limpers in is like printing money. Failing to raise with AA here is like wiping your ass with said money. You should be raising a wide variety of hands on the button with several limpers in. Who cares about deception? You are going to be in a raised multiway pot. Your job is to get as much money in the pot preflop as possible... and then protect your large pot postflop. Save your fancy plays for small shorthanded pots.

Geez.. this play just makes my stomach churn. To think that this is the one hand out of like three or four thousand that you are blessed with AA on the button with several limpers in front of you... and you choose this opportunity to vary your play.

Ed Miller · #22 03-11-2003, 03:31 PM

This is good and correct thinking. If he didn't raise pre-flop, it should be in hopes he can make is 2 bets to a bunch of checkers on teh flop to thin the field. Raising on the button pre-flop won't wold anyone who limped other than the blinds maybe. I still certainly would've done it, but a case can be made for not doing it considering it would make a huge pot and tie people on to long shot draws. On the flop, he gets the perfect situation... the guy just before him bets, he really should raise this pair and hope to get it nearly heads up right there. Your statement about the collective field is completely correct. What if a club hits next card? Will he shut it down? I realize he isn't gonna fold a flush draw with the flop raise but he's cutting their odds and it needs to be done.

It's a good thing that one doesn't get AA on the button with several limpers in front of him very often... because if that happened all the time, with this approach to that situation... it would be damn hard to make any money at all playing this game.

marbles · #23 03-11-2003, 03:53 PM

"Geez.. this play just makes my stomach churn."

--What makes my stomach churn is that there's no way he could have extracted more bets from MY stack than this cutesy play. Raising preflop would have made HIM a bunch of bets long-run, but it would have saved me a nice chunk of dough.

Ed Miller · #24 03-11-2003, 05:12 PM

What makes my stomach churn is that there's no way he could have extracted more bets from MY stack than this cutesy play.

Yup... that is very true... and that does suck (especially because if he had raised, hopefully you would have just folded preflop). But... again... in the long term (how often do we take solace in that? [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]) he will just be taking less money off your table leaving more for you.

CrackerZack · #25 03-11-2003, 05:25 PM

You're a favorite to win over each individual, but not to the group. you will lose with AA in a 6 handed pot more often than you will win, but you will win more than any individual will. A big pair plays best against a small number of opponents, unless you're playing it for its set value. In this hand he certainly didn't play it like it was for set value.

It's a good thing that one doesn't get AA on the button with several limpers in front of him very often... because if that happened all the time, with this approach to that situation... it would be damn hard to make any money at all playing this game

Not hard, but you can certainly make moves to maximize your chance of winning the pot and by giving several limpers a chance to see the turn card, you certainly aren't doing that. Do you disagree that you will lose more than 1/2 the time in this situation?

Homer · #26 03-11-2003, 05:29 PM

"A big pair plays best against a small number of opponents, unless you're playing it for its set value."

Where did you hear that big pairs play better against a small number of opponents? Would you rather have AA in a capped pot against nine opponents, four opponents, or one opponent?

What do you mean by "playing it for its set value"? Do you mean that if you don't flop a set with AA you are necessarily behind or in trouble?

-- Homer

CrackerZack · #27 03-11-2003, 05:31 PM

You're really that in love with this situation? I agree with you completely that the button played it terribly but saying this is a situation to print money is a bit overboard. Personally when I'm playing, get AA on the button and have 3 or more limpers in front of me I'm looking at everything I can do to start limiting the field. Raising pre-flop to fold the blinds is a start, but I want to get this heads-up as quickly as possible. If its still 4+ handed on the river I'm no longer feeling good about my hand unless I have a set or better.

Homer · #28 03-11-2003, 05:33 PM

"Personally when I'm playing, get AA on the button and have 3 or more limpers in front of me I'm looking at everything I can do to start limiting the field. Raising pre-flop to fold the blinds is a start, but I want to get this heads-up as quickly as possible."

I raise preflop hoping that both blinds will coldcall and that one of the limpers will limp-reraise.

-- Homer

CrackerZack · #29 03-11-2003, 05:43 PM

No, I wouldn't say you're in trouble, hasn't in all those situations the pot now gotten "large"? And shouldn't you be doing everything you can to win it right there? Plus you have very little chance of improving. Am I totally off-base here? Have I been sucked out on with K3o against my AA just one too many times and its skewed my thinking?

To answer your question... 1) AA capped against 9 people because its funny. Its a high EV, very high variance situation, but very amusing. 2) AA capped against one other person. You have them by the short and curlies here. Especially against most normal opponents who will only 3-bet or cap with big pairs or AK and you dominate all those hands. 3) AA capped against 4 people. flop will hit someone, hopefully not hard, and people will have the odds to draw to 5 outers the whole way. Of course its still a +EV play, but I think your opponents are making the fewest mistakes in this situation.

As for where I read big pairs play best against few opponents, I thought it was in HPFAP but I've been reading Feeney, Vourhaus and Sklansky's tourney book a lot more recently so if I'm wrong, certainly correct me. i'll go looking for it tonight when i get home either way.

JTG51 · #30 03-11-2003, 05:44 PM

I raise preflop hoping that both blinds will coldcall and that one of the limpers will limp-reraise.

Me too.

I always say my dream scenario would be an UTG raise, UTG+1 3-bet, and UTG+2 cap followed by 4 cold callers to me on the button with AA.

It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure looking forward to it. I'll be sure to post the hand here when it does. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]