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  #21  
Old 06-24-2005, 02:21 PM
Cased Heel Cased Heel is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

Always raise with these hands. Always.

A minraise has benefits b/c it may get re-raised to which you can re-raise. You get the benefits of re-opening the betting to the BB yet you aren't betting too much to scare any fish away.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2005, 02:25 PM
Ghazban Ghazban is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

[ QUOTE ]
A minraise has benefits b/c it may get re-raised to which you can re-raise. You get the benefits of re-opening the betting to the BB yet you aren't betting too much to scare any fish away.

[/ QUOTE ]

A minraise has the enormous downside of giving away information cheaply (aka huge reverse implied odds). Many of the largest pots I've won in SSNL games are where I've flopped a garbage two pair out of the blinds and busted somebody who minraised AA and couldn't lay it down.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2005, 02:30 PM
amoeba amoeba is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

if you miss the reraise its fine. Just don't get committed with just an overpair hand. while the reverse implied odds are just as high or higher with relation to how much they paid to see the flop (1BB), the absolute amount is not that much because I won't commit my stack with just an overpair.

If you think that the table is tight enough that they call you with just pocketpairs preflop or that you'll always get it 3 way with a 5xBB preflop raise then raising UTG is obviously correct.

However, in the example I showed, you have to worry about KQ, you have to worry about 89, you maybe have to worry about Q9, you have to worry about flush draw. Thats a lot of scarecards that can come on the turn or river that I don't like. Lots of scarecards that unfortunately I have to bet as default because I don't want to be bluffed out of big pot. I don't have position so I can't see what they do on the scare card.





Thats a lot of scare cards on that turn that
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2005, 02:31 PM
amoeba amoeba is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

I think minraise is the worst of the 3 options.
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2005, 02:35 PM
TakeMeToTheRiver TakeMeToTheRiver is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

[ QUOTE ]
A minraise has benefits....

[/ QUOTE ]

NEVER NEVER NEVER minraise in EP pre-flop with AA/KK.
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2005, 03:11 PM
subzero subzero is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

[ QUOTE ]
Many of the largest pots I've won in SSNL games are where I've flopped a garbage two pair out of the blinds and busted somebody who minraised AA and couldn't lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is always the problem with AA. Some people just can't let it go. If I limp with AA, I might be able to trap someone since I have added deception. But if I seven people see the flop, it's coordinated, and there's heavy betting action, I'm easily folding.

But since PT says AA is my top money winner, I'll continue to bet out most of the time and hope to get heads up with a big pair or AK.
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  #27  
Old 07-07-2005, 12:45 PM
Cased Heel Cased Heel is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A minraise has benefits b/c it may get re-raised to which you can re-raise. You get the benefits of re-opening the betting to the BB yet you aren't betting too much to scare any fish away.

[/ QUOTE ]

A minraise has the enormous downside of giving away information cheaply (aka huge reverse implied odds). Many of the largest pots I've won in SSNL games are where I've flopped a garbage two pair out of the blinds and busted somebody who minraised AA and couldn't lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately, the tables I've been playing have been re-raising often PF. This is why I said it's OK to miniraise in EP, b/c someone with KQ suited or the likeness will likely re-raise b/c a miniraise from EP could mean any two paint cards. You aren't giving away much info. for cheap. Again, an EP miniraise could mean any two paint cards really, we are talking 6-max here right? Plus, lets not forget that often times 6-max really only consists of 4 or 5 players so a miniraise is not the end of the world against only 3 or 4 opponents.
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2005, 12:46 PM
amoeba amoeba is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

you should really raise that flop.
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  #29  
Old 07-07-2005, 12:52 PM
Ghazban Ghazban is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

If somebody will reraise a minraise, they probably would've raised themselves. So limp/reraising is better than minraising/re-reraising because a limp/reraise gives away no information if there is no raise while the minraise screws you if nobody reraises. Furthermore, some hands that might've raised had you limped might just call the minraise, putting you in a position where you could've reraised had you limped but can't since you minraised. The only conceivable advantage I can see to minraising/re-reraising over limp/reraising is that its much easier to get enough of your stack in to make any flop an easy push.
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  #30  
Old 07-07-2005, 01:19 PM
sammy_g sammy_g is offline
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Default Re: Limping with AA/KK in EP: Always, sometimes, never?

harrington on hold'em I has some good advice about playing big pairs in early position. he believes objectively the best play is to raise 3xBB. when he plays against regular opponents, though, he mixes it so he's hard to read. i don't remember exactly what he advocates, but i think it is something like 20% of the time he limps, 10% of the time he raises 5xBB, and 10% of the time he raises 2xBB. the rest of the time he raises 3-4xBB. (someone correct me if this is wrong.)

if you do minraise with these hands sometimes, you must minraise with other hands as well so you don't telegraph your holding. in general, though, i'm not a big fan of minraises.

harrington suggests using the second hand on your watch to randomize your play, which is a cool trick.

on the internet, i think i just raise 3-4xBB always, unless there are a couple of maniacs in the game. players just aren't as observant, and they come and go. no need for deception. look to play a raised pot against one or two opponents.

by the way, i'm not sure i would consider the hand you posted a "success" even though you won a nice pot. you really want someone to raise behind you so you can reraise. if you limped AA on this hand, you might have lost some cash.
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