State of Iraq

[nicky g]

Mmmm. By the way while you are misunderstanding me on purpose, I note that M was outraged at that phrase, presumably taking it as directed at US soldiers. It wasn't; although I don't think they should be there there's little use in directing anger at the average grunt doing what they're ordered to, even if following orders is not a viable defence, and it was aimed at Bush, Rumsfeld and Co.

On the subject of the insurgency, I have nothing but contempt for the likes of the ones that have been blowing up crowds of civilians etc. I have more sympathy for those that have been fighting a guerrilla war against occupying troops, which I believe area probably much larger group; while I think they are misguided and should lay down their weapons for at least long enough to see how the new Iraq pans out, essentially give peace a chance, I can't be overly judgemental of people who decide to fight a foreign invading army that has been heavy handed and careless and has engaged in things like the flattening of Falluja (whose population is still largely living in tent cities by the way, not that you'd know it from the coverage of the "liberal" media which has forgotten the entire thing) and other provocations.

Furthermore blaming the insurgency for all of Iraq's current problems, even ignoring that the rise of the insurgency is a large part the fault of the war and the handling of its aftermath , is ridiculous. They are hampering reconstruction efforts but the effects of the war and the chaos that followed it, especially the terrible handling of reconstruction, have had a far greater effect.

[BCPVP]

Man, you guys want Rome built and you want it built yesterday!
As far as the rebuilding stuff goes:

Check here for last week's updates on ongoing projects.
Here for past updates.

Having done some research on this subject for a paper I'm writing, I don't think the BBC is portraying the situation very accurately. For example:
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After the U.S. military and its allies invaded Iraq in March 2003, the coalition forces discovered an infrastructure decimated by decades of neglect.

Sewage treatment systems were not working, instead dumping untreated waste into the Tigris and Euphrates rivers — the same rivers from which the population draws their drinking water, according to the U.S. Agency for International Development, which helps oversee Iraq's reconstruction.

Meanwhile, water treatment systems, which serve only a small percentage of the country's residents, were not adequately treating drinking water. Many people directly haul water out of rivers for drinking, bathing and cooking without any treatment. Since the early 1990s, Iraqi children have died in high numbers largely because of the deliberate neglect of the country's wastewater facilities. The deaths number in the hundreds of thousands, according to the U.S. government.

"There was serious need to clean up the waste being released into the Tigris," said Harry Edwards, a spokesman for the U.S. Agency for International Development, also known as USAID. "It had not been done for many years and was quite possibly instrumental in childhood illnesses in some of the Shiite populations."

A USAID report states that the death rate has been so high — hundreds of thousands over the past 12 years — that in parts of southern Iraq, "it may be tantamount to infanticide."

The United States is spending more than $217 million repairing existing water and wastewater systems throughout the country, directly benefiting 14.5 million people, according to USAID. More money would be needed to expand the systems and construct facilities in other areas.

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source

[andyfox]

"You guys will be shown to be on the wrong side of history (as the Left nearly always is)."

Depends what you mean by "the Left." Communism was/is clearly on the wrong side of history. But if you mean the Democratic Party, i.e., the left side of America's mainstream political specturm, it has clearly been on the correct side of history in our country. It fought the Cold War (dragging the conversative, isolationist Right Republicans along kicking and screaming) and the Civil Rights Movement and oversaw the making of America into the mightiest political and economic power the world has ever seen.

I think it's far too early to tell whether the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be successful or not. The original post is useful as an antidote to the rose-colored optimism of others who claim things are going swimmingly. Since our government is on the "swimmingly" side, a view of the other side of the argument is important. Far too early to tell which side is closer to the truth. One suspects that, as usual, it lies somewhere in the middle.

[BCPVP]

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I think it's far too early to tell whether the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be successful or not.

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Definitely.

[adios]

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On the subject of the insurgency, I have nothing but contempt for the likes of the ones that have been blowing up crowds of civilians etc.

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Great.

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I have more sympathy for those that have been fighting a guerrilla war against occupying troops, which I believe area probably much larger group; while I think they are misguided and should lay down their weapons for at least long enough to see how the new Iraq pans out, essentially give peace a chance, I can't be overly judgemental of people who decide to fight a foreign invading army that has been heavy handed and careless and has engaged in things like the flattening of Falluja (whose population is still largely living in tent cities by the way, not that you'd know it from the coverage of the "liberal" media which has forgotten the entire thing) and other provocations.

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Ah they are freedom fighters, fighting for the freedom of all Iraqis. That's absolutely hilarious. There are so many things wrong with what you write here I can't even begin to waste my time answering this.

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Furthermore blaming the insurgency for all of Iraq's current problems, even ignoring that the rise of the insurgency is a large part the fault of the war and the handling of its aftermath , is ridiculous. They are hampering reconstruction efforts but the effects of the war and the chaos that followed it, especially the terrible handling of reconstruction, have had a far greater effect.

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What's ridiculous is your implication that the insurgency is led by those fighting for a free and democratic Iraq. When people decide to kill innocent civilians the responsibility lies with those commiting the murder. When people fight to maintain a regime that oppresses 80% of it's population by blowing up whatever the responsibility lies with those seeking to oppress and committing the mayhem.

[nicky g]

Sorry, but I am not going to take a US government source trying to excuse its own failings that talks about the "deliberate neglect" of infrastructure without any mention of the effects of the sanctions (any clue why the infrastructure started to deteriorate in the 1990s?) and the subsequent devestation of the Iraqi economy seriously.

[nicky g]

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Ah they are freedom fighters, fighting for the freedom of all Iraqis. That's absolutely hilarious. There are so many things wrong with what you write here I can't even begin to waste my time answering this.

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Furthermore blaming the insurgency for all of Iraq's current problems, even ignoring that the rise of the insurgency is a large part the fault of the war and the handling of its aftermath , is ridiculous. They are hampering reconstruction efforts but the effects of the war and the chaos that followed it, especially the terrible handling of reconstruction, have had a far greater effect.

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What's ridiculous is your implication that the insurgency is led by those fighting for a free and democratic Iraq. When people decide to kill innocent civilians the responsibility lies with those commiting the murder. When people fight to maintain a regime that oppresses 80% of it's population by blowing up whatever the responsibility lies with those seeking to oppress and committing the mayhem.

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There is little point in wasting my own time responding to these as you completely mischaracterise what I said. To put it simply for you:

I did not say the insurgents were fighting for freedom and democracy. I said that I am not willing to condemn out of hand people who take up arms against a foreign invading army participating in what I regard as an illegetimate war, although I am willing to condemn those that target civilians, and I think all insurgents should lay down their arms (especially at the moment when they are being offered an amnesty), as the Muslim Council of Scholars has been recommending. if that is too nuanced a point for you, maybe you should read something else. My other points were the upheaval of the war and the handling of its aftermath bear at a lot of responsibility for the rise of the insurgency and most of the responsibility for the poor state of Iraq today, which in turn sustains the insurgency to a degree.

[BCPVP]

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Sorry, but I am not going to take a US government source trying to excuse its own failings

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Mind explaining how USAID is responsible for the deterioration of Iraq's wastewater treatment facilities?

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any clue why the infrastructure started to deteriorate in the 1990s?

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I don't suppose swindling Billions from OIF and playing three-card monty with the Inspectors had anything to do with it(not to mention other abuses w/ money)...

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and the subsequent devestation of the Iraqi economy seriously.

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Fine. But I'd love to hear where you're going to find a better source on how the details of Iraq's reconstruction are proceeding than the actual gov't agency responsible for that reconstruction...

[nicky g]

"Mind explaining how USAID is responsible for the deterioration of Iraq's wastewater treatment facilities?"

It and the occupation forces in general, and the effects of the war they undertook, have been responsible for damaging Iraqi infrstructure and doing a rotten job of repairing it.

" don't suppose swindling Billions from OFF and playing three-card monty with the Inspectors had anything to do with it(not to mention other abuses w/ money)..."

We've had this discussion before on the board - the fraudlent OIF revenues paled int insignificance in comparison to the economic damage done by the sanctions, and were largely additional to the legitimate revenues rather than diversions of legimitate revenues.

"Fine. But I'd love to hear where you're going to find a better source on how the details of Iraq's reconstruction are proceeding than the actual gov't agency responsible for that reconstruction... "

You have a point. But it is still clearly massively biased and I prefer to take my cue from respectable journalistic sources.

[BCPVP]

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It and the occupation forces in general, and the effects of the war they undertook, have been responsible for damaging Iraqi infrstructure and doing a rotten job of repairing it.

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1) USAID did not damage the wastewater facilities in Southern Iraq.
2) The wastewater facilities have been neglected over the years by Saddam
3) On what do you base your claim that they're doing a rotten job repairing it (considering what they have to work with and terrorist attacks)

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We've had this discussion before on the board - the fraudlent OIF revenues paled int insignificance in comparison to the economic damage done by the sanctions, and were largely additional to the legitimate revenues rather than diversions of legimitate revenues.

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Right...so the fact that Saddam chose to spend money bribing the UN and on arms from those countries has absolutely nothing to do with their neglect of their own infrastructure...

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But it is still clearly massively biased and I prefer to take my cue from respectable journalistic sources.

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Yes, it may be biased, but there just isn't a lot of journalistic interest in the progress on specific projects within Iraq. Who really wants to know how many mW an electricity plant in Baghdad is producing? "If it bleeds, it leads..."