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  #1  
Old 08-02-2003, 05:00 AM
elysium elysium is offline
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Default AA vs. KK heads-up all-in




sheeeeeoooooottttt
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  #2  
Old 08-02-2003, 05:04 AM
Bolivia Bolivia is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

I guess that means you didn't have the AA's????
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  #3  
Old 08-02-2003, 05:29 AM
crockpot crockpot is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

don't forget, this is the bad beat centrul forum. he obviously had the AA on an Axx flop, got all in, and saw a KK turn and river.
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  #4  
Old 08-02-2003, 07:18 AM
gavrilo gavrilo is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

how about the hand? can we know how it was played?
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  #5  
Old 08-03-2003, 04:32 AM
elysium elysium is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

hi people
no, it wasn't as exciting as all that. you really want to hear how it played out?

the blinds are only 2 and 5 dollars, yea....cheap; i had about 250 bucks in front of me, and the others had between that and 500 or so, no huge buy-ins.

the UTG limped in for 5 and i raised with my cowboys to 20 the MP called and the button reraised to 50.

now the button here is fairly solid. i put him on AA, QQ, or AK. JJ was also possible, not likely though considering that he reraised to 50.

the UTG folded and i looked left at the MP to try to get a clue. the MP in this game was very unpredictable, and the sum of a beeawwtch was thinking about it. well, i ain't lettin him in. several hands earlier i went all-in with AA and got em cracked by some other sum of a beeawwtch with J8 off-suuitch. guy calls with J8o, whew....anyway, i go all-in decisively, and the MP folds. good, i'm happy. but the way the raiser called my all-in was not how i wanted. he called my all-in in a very awful way. i could tell you with 99% accuracy that he had exactly AA now, i just wish there were some way for me to tell before. the flop came Q rag, rag. the turn produced another rag. the river then ragged in a more ragged way than usual. and i'm laughing now because all i remember afterwards is my opponent looking at me and saying "thanks!" as he scooped. everyone at the table said that they knew he had the rockets. one gentleman was kind enough to assert that he knew one of us had them, kinda implying that since he knew that one of us had them and that i knew i didn't, i never should have gone all-in. and on and on for 15 min.

yes, i felt stupid, but just give me the cowboys. we'll get em next time around.

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Old 08-03-2003, 04:53 AM
The Gift Of Gab The Gift Of Gab is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

This is an ugly situation. The problem with putting in a big third raise with kings is that it makes it hard for your opponent to make a mistake, unless you are notoriously aggressive preflop. Aces will call you, the unlikely kings may, and queens and lower will probably fold fearing a coinflip at best - and only if you would make this move with AK.

If this guy would reraise and call with worse then you played it fine, otherwise you must put yourself in a situation where you can discover his aces and make a brilliant laydown. This may be almost impossible given your stack size. A stack saved is a stack well earned here.

Anyone have good advice on how to get away or take this as anything more than a long-term EV wash?

On a related note, Ulysses made a good post a few weeks ago in which he managed to escape with most of his stack in a similar situation. He still owes me about $500, dammit.
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  #7  
Old 08-03-2003, 08:56 PM
elysium elysium is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

hi gift
no matter what size stack i have, i would not be able to make the lay-down. my only thought at that time was getting it heads-up at all costs, not whether i was against rockets or not. i would hate to flop a set and lose to a dumb runner, runner on my imm. left. i did whatever was necessary to get him out.

as far as making an incredible lay-down, gift i can't envision such a thing. would i have held back if the hand was heads up at that point? no, i would not have.

i'm not real familiar with no-limit, and if my thinking is wrong here, i would like to know. oh sure, i'm very aware about the ol' tight who you've studied for some time and who never goes all-in without the rockets under similar circumstances; but this was the first time i had played against this opponent, and while he was indeed solid, i didn't have enough info not to go all-in. i will say this though; i knew he had the rockets by the manner in which he called my all-in. i wanted the call, but not quite like that. this night, he had a better pocket pair than KK.
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  #8  
Old 08-04-2003, 12:24 AM
Chris Nichelson Chris Nichelson is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

If you really wanted to lose the middle position guy, and you really thought that AA,KK,QQ or AK was possible,with Jacks say 25% possible, then it is simple math and combinations. 6 AA, 1KK, 6QQ, 8AK (since you have 2 Kings) + approx. 1.5 Jacks. It is better than 2 to 1 that you have the best hand or are tied.

A lot of times, however, it is clear that a player will only do this with AA or KK or occasionally with AK, and that can make it a better situation to lay down the hand in. In limit poker, I will three bet all the time with pairs down to 99. In no limit, I will usually call a raise with QQ. I am only reraising with AA, KK, or as a bluff. You may want to take a little more time and ask yourself what type of player you are up against. Many of the best no limit players want to see the flop--and when this type of player raises an early position raiser and a tricky cold caller, they are pretty certain to have at least AA offsuit. You can get away from Kings. Don't worry about the other players. They don't know what you have, and you should never show this kind of laydown unless you are setting something up.

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  #9  
Old 08-04-2003, 04:45 AM
elysium elysium is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

hi chris
really? it is possible to get away from KK? i assume that you must have a good read on your opponent. this was the first time i ever played this particular opponent. he had been solid, but i just didn't have enough of a read on him. could i have still gotten away from going all-in? i don't think so. i would need a better history on him than just a few hours of playing time. i will remember your advice though, thanks.
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  #10  
Old 08-04-2003, 09:23 AM
Chris Nichelson Chris Nichelson is offline
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Default Re: AA vs. KK heads-up all-in

There used to be a 2-5 blind NLHE at the TExas Station in Las Vegas. I threw away KK once, and I am pretty sure that it was the right thing to do--although I didn't see the hand, it was a similar circumstance to the one you described--I raised and got one tricky playing calling and the cutoff moved me in. There were a few players in that game who seemed to have a lot of NLHE experience, and I noticed that they only called with a lot of hands that I thought were reraising hands.

Suppose you have those KK, get called in two spots, and the flop comes 9-7-4 with three suits. You bet $60 (the pot) and are moved all in at that point. You might here get shown QQ by one of these players, and interestingly enough, these type of guys can be called down sometimes even more readily AFTER the flop.

Most limit players, however, would get it all in pre-flop with AK or a big wired pair like QQ, and therefore your call might have been correct (in the long run) against someone who you thought had a propensity for loving the horse race effect of no-limit: get it all in pre-flop and we're off to the races!

Just watch out for these no limit experts, they won't raise very often without a real good reason.
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