AA utg ; turn decision.

[elysium]

this hand is from a live 10-20 game similar to a hand posted by vehn. there are no loose fish in this one. it's pretty tight and aggressive with opponents coming in correctly pre-flop and tending not to fold post flop.

utg raises in and gets called by the MP; folded to the button who reraises! the button wouldn't reraise the cold-call in this game without at least QQ; he knows he's against at least AK and AJs, and he's a TOM. he rarely lowers his reraising standards. he rarely lowers his raising standards for that matter.

the BB calls! but he's the loosest of the bunch, and over defends his BB. he likes to see the flop, and play well afterwards. i 4-bet, and everyone calls.

the flop comes 975 two hearts. similar to vehn's post. this could be vehn's post in another form (lol)...whew. anyway, what....we said 975 two hearts, ok. i bet out to pick up the pot. no sense in fooling around any. i move to end it right now, but have a great redraw with Ah if another heart hits on the turn.

i bet out strongly. i don't have vehn's post in front of me, but i got raised and reraised, the BB starts beating his chest, what a mess. i reraise the dang thing, with little hope of ending it all, anytime soon anyway. plunk, plunk, plunk, and the echoes of plunk ringing in my head.

the 3 of hearts hits on the turn. i'm ambivelent about what to do here. and don't know how to spell either. but i remember something that d.s. once wrote. a little blurb, but sometimes little blurbs are your best blurb, imho, and read i did. the central idea revolved around betting or raising on the turn when your opponents will call that bet or raise, but not a bet when your hand completes. the memory of this article was jostled into cognition when i peered out beyond the parameters of time and demension visualizing what the crummy board would look like if i hit my nut draw. and i looked at my AA one of suit, yes visualizationally, and thought hmmmmm. and i bet out to see if risking venture capital would cause me to think on a higher level still. the MP called, the button raised, the SB folded....to....me. well, d.s. article never fully came to mind. at that stage, i couldn't see the MP completed Q high flush, and i don't remember anything else about the hand. i was wondering if my set would be good if i hit my hand, etc. oh well. but vehn's post reminded me of it, and now i think i grasp what d.s. was saying.

i now realize that the best course of action here would have been to reraise. and i believe that this hand is an excellent back-drop to d.s. post. d.s. used the semi-bluff from last position on the turn. but this hand more clearly demonstrates the criteria for making such a bet or raise. the semi-bluff from last is a good example of when to bet or raise because of the collapse of implied odds on the river, but if you examine this hand, you can see more clearly why raising is correct. should you raise as a semi-bluff from last because your opponents won't call if you complete? i don't know. i'm not sure that d.s. knows. the post appeared to be d.s. speculating, toying with the idea. but set the semi-bluff scenario aside for a second, and replace it with this. and remember that in order for a semi to be correct, there must be some expectation of getting the fold. but not so here. the fold and importantly, position, do not cloud the central idea.

the issue is pot odds. should you lower your current pot odds for the benefit of increasing the implied pot odds. and that is why, incidently, i think this is such a better back-drop. raising a typical semi with a draw to the nuts doesn't increase your implied odds. or does it? ok, it may. but in this example, you just seem to be able to see the idea clearer. you normally have many considerations with a semi-bluff turn raise. those extra considerations are removed here and you can focus on the main point that d.s. was making. getting the bets in now on a hand that hasn't yet completed because when it completes, the implied odds collapse. the clarity that this scenario gives allows you to see the extra benefit of increase of implied odds. but yes, i suppose that would be true in the case of a semi-bluff turn raise. one more thing; in the semi scenario, you don't have a feel for the possibility of a reraise of your reraise. you just know that in the case of a semi, you do not want the reraise. not so here. do you see how a reraise further increases your implied odds? but doesn't push you below positive ev at the point of the turn? in the scenario of the semi bluff, you simply do not want, NOR DO YOU ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF, a reraise. in this scenario, you actually like a reraise. do you see why? but if i were absolutely sure, i wouldn't be asking, 'what move should i have made on the turn?'.

[elysium]

hi everyone
i like reraising on the turn because;
1) it conceals your holding making it more difficult for your opponents to put you on A hi flush either now, or when you complete.

2) it gets bets into the pot now, that couldn't be gotten in after the nut flush completes.

3) it gives any set, straight, or lower flush correct odds to call in a three-way. they're getting about 20-1.

4) when you show-down, your opponents will be more inclined to call your turn reraises in the future.

5) your reraise is protected. you will not be reraised. however, if you are, you still remain above ev.

and then the side benfits of appearing looser than you are and less predictable are elicited on the turn. this is a turn play. if there is an area that doesn't afford a lot of plays made for deception, it is on the turn. but of course since the game is won or lost on the turn, you would like the added value of being less predictable on the turn.

the only negatives to reraising is that it reduces your current pot odds. but not below ev.

one more point; when your hand misses, having represented a completed hand, although being put on the A hi flush is also possible, it's either or-ish, you have an opportunity to bet out and pick up the pot that way. played this way, you show down often and still get the benefits appearing looser than you are when you reraise on the turn in the future. and since you rarely reraise bluff on the turn, making your reraises appear looser, works well into your total game.

[tewall]

I don't like the reraise. If there was any chance at all your raise could get a worse hand to fold, either here or on the river, that would make it worth doing. But the pot is so large by this point, your opponent will stay with you no matter what. As far as implied odds are concerned, you would need more people in the pot. With one opponent and extra bets are just helping him. (Abdul has a section on his web site about when to bet for value in a suck-out situation). That leaves the only reason for the re-raise to be deception for this and future hands, and I don't think it's worth the price. Deception is good when it is a byproduct of other considerations, but isn't worth the cost of a bet on its own in limit play IMO.

[andyfox]

oh well there's so much stuff to cover here one can't hardly tell where to begin, with the spelling issues or the plunk, plunk, plunks with the echoes of such plunks, the semi scenario, the little blurbs being your best blurb and everything. so just one thing: you said you bet out on the flop to end the thing right now and win the pot. Now it might be correct to bet with pocket rockets right here on the flop no matter how many plunks or what kind of chest beating is going on, but there is no way, i say no way, you're going to win a pot right now on the flop with a bet when it was four-bet pre-flop and there are three opponents looking visualizationally at a coordinated straight-drawing flush-drawing mid-range dang mess of a flop.

whew!

Sorry, Elysium, I just couldn't resist. You're a wonder.

[elysium]

thanks for the responses
well, i'm on to something here. there isn't enough room to attack the central idea of betting or raising before your hand completes because after it completes, you won't get called; taking a reduction in current odds to increase your implied odds. here it is again; attack it or it moves up. and i don't think you all want d.s. to see all those spelling errors. and don't say, "i think reraising for deception purposes alone are foolish.". that is far removed from the main idea. that was something i offered as an adjunct to and compliment of the central issue of 'betting now, because you won't get called after your hand completes'. and the correct answer won't arrive without a lot of thought. so it requires a little focus. and don't discuss the history of the hand. i don't remember the hand. all i remember is that i didn't take this issue into consideration at the focal point, on the turn. the most memorable thing about the hand occurred when one of my opponents did a cart-wheel across the table. but i left that out so that no one would be distracted. i included the beating of the chest by the SB because it happened to be a very good tell. but the cart-wheel may have been some involuntary reflex action. so i left it out. the main idea people. and andy, you addressed, unless i'm mistaken, the flop. and yes, i may have been stupid enough to think that i could get the fold. but i pointed out that the hand took place at a time when i didn't even know how to post a blind yet, much less anything else. i said that i never even considered the main issue at that time. a post that i read though caused me to remember this hand.

betting or raising or reraising before your hand completes to improve your implied odds, and get other additional benefits. if your addressing the side issues, i'd like the fact that playing the hand this way will inspire your opponents to call reraises by you on the turn in the future. and since you never reraise bluff on the turn, how that may help a little swinging the decision one way or the other. but you you can look at it from the point of view of a raise, although you do bluff raise on the turn and semi-bluff raise. i just thought that it was interesting that this is a reraise.

lastly here, you can see how complicated this is. you cannot consider this issue at the table unless you have worked out first. you haven't shot it down though, not yet anyway. so there's something here. sure as chit, someone will post this hand, or one like it. what will you tell him or her? i say reraise. but i'm not sure. and neither are any one of you. if you only want to discuss hands that you're sure about, there would be no need for this site.

[elysium]

hi
i think that the answer of the question 'when to bet or raise right now, even though it diminishes current pot odds, because your implied odds plummet after your hand completes'. in this case, you have pocket AA on the turn, with three-of-suit on board, and one of your A's is suited to the three-suit. 3 or 4 way, average action, and strong hands remain to act. a call would close the action, but your reraise is protected. there is no reason to believe that if your hand completes, it won't take down the pot.

i think that since there are few opportunities afforded to reraise on the turn, if we are solid players, we need to look for opportunities that let our opponents know that we don't only bet when we have a made hand. that sometimes we bet without having already completed, but not including situations where it would mean betting or in this case, reraising would drastically reduce our ev. and if there is a liklihood of not getting in those bets after the hand completes, then greater weight should be given to the concept of raising now even though you reduce the current pot odds. deception doesn't make this play correct, but image enhancement just might, along with the extra call or two that that deception provides, or raise. and if you miss, and your A isn't paired (AKo), and you muck after having reraised the turn, the next time you reraise or raise the turn, you'll get additional calls. your reraise without the goods won't be forgotten soon. but, if your image isn't solid, if it's already loose enough, then you shouldn't make this play. but it's not based on image enhancement alone. i stress that. it's just that it appears as though when you are considering raising now because you won't get called when your hand completes, image enhancement, along with the more important issue of increase of implied odds, throw the weight of the decision into the plus side of things, and you should not make this play if you're already getting called and your image is loose enough. but it's nice to have it worked out ahead of time. and now we know. so if we're in need of a little loosening, we can quickly and causually throw in that reraise, without appearing analytical at the table.

[bobgreen]

How does reraising the turn increase your implied odds?
When the fourth heart appears on the river, what hands will put in more river money after your turn reraise than they would have after a turn flat call. I actually think some sets and small flushes might more likely call your river utg lead bet if you had not reraised the turn.

[elysium]

hi bob
yea, it's not a trivial issue. and no, i haven't coordinated the content of the research, thought etc, yet. it'll be hard to get through here anyway. at the time i wrote that, i had just thought of it in conjunction with what i thought was unfinished work on another related issue. the reraise....

you would not reraise. but have you thought that through? well, no need to. as it turns out, it's an image decision, but oh bob. that's a good reraise under the right conditions.