Chip Leader - Mandatory Call?

[Martin Aigner]

I was writing about Betgos post:

[ QUOTE ]
Calling would be a really bad play. You are on the button, so you have no chips already invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I satated before, it´s only about the odds, but not about the money he had already invested.

An example: You play a guy heads up, on the turn the pot is 600, meaning both of you invested 300 so far. You have a flushdraw, but no other outs. You opponent bets 300, obviously you shouldn´t call. Does the fact that you already invested 300 change the odds?

Hope, that makes clear what I intented to say.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[Knightmare44]

[ QUOTE ]
I was writing about Betgos post:

[ QUOTE ]
Calling would be a really bad play. You are on the button, so you have no chips already invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I satated before, it´s only about the odds, but not about the money he had already invested.

An example: You play a guy heads up, on the turn the pot is 600, meaning both of you invested 300 so far. You have a flushdraw, but no other outs. You opponent bets 300, obviously you shouldn´t call. Does the fact that you already invested 300 change the odds?

Hope, that makes clear what I intented to say.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[/ QUOTE ]

Still wrong martin
say hypothetically the blinds are 5k/10k - someone pushes from utg for 11k - you are on the button with 2-7 offsuit - it's an easy fold - but say you are the bb you MUST call if you have any idea what you are doing. you call in the dark
hope this makes you see what we're saying - the fact that if he was in the bb he would have to CALL A LESSER AMOUNT.

[checkymcfold]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you think about trying to keep the short stacks around? In this particular tourney, there was a $100 difference in price money between 6th ($500) and 7th ($400). I believe a short stack hanging on is a huge advantage for the chip leader, especially when his lead is nearly 2 to 1 on the next largest stack. Most players are willing to wait for the short stack to bust out before gambling with a medium strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo. all the more reason to fold it. that BB guy didn't know what he was talking about. (NB- when it comes to poker, common knowledge is often wrong. that's why we can make so much money [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I was writing about Betgos post:

[ QUOTE ]
Calling would be a really bad play. You are on the button, so you have no chips already invested.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I satated before, it´s only about the odds, but not about the money he had already invested.

An example: You play a guy heads up, on the turn the pot is 600, meaning both of you invested 300 so far. You have a flushdraw, but no other outs. You opponent bets 300, obviously you shouldn´t call. Does the fact that you already invested 300 change the odds?

Hope, that makes clear what I intented to say.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're acting 2nd with a flush draw on the turn and being offered 3:1 odds.... and you fold???? Correct only if the 300 bet put the player AI. Otherwise you assume some implied odds if you hit.

CSC

[betgo]

You are correct that the money in the pot is no longer your money and how much you have in the pot shouldn't effect your thinking. However, if you already have 1000 in as the BB, then you only have to put another 1100 in, so you are getting 3.4-1 odds, then it is an easy call. It is not because you have money invested, but because you need to invest less additional money.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
Still wrong martin
say hypothetically the blinds are 5k/10k - someone pushes from utg for 11k - you are on the button with 2-7 offsuit - it's an easy fold - but say you are the bb you MUST call if you have any idea what you are doing. you call in the dark
hope this makes you see what we're saying - the fact that if he was in the bb he would have to CALL A LESSER AMOUNT.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, one last try. Of course you have to call in the dark in the above example, but the reason is not that you did invest money yourself. The reason why to call is that you now get great odds. Of course you get the odds because of the money already invested, but this still makes no difference that the money already invested is no longer your money. That was the only thing I wanted to make clear, since there are lots of players out there who defend their blinds (or call on later streets) too loosely, due to the fact that they still see the money in the pot as "their" money, which simply is wrong. How often did you hear somebody say: "Now that I have called the bet x I have to call the bet y too." Poor poker. It´s all about odds at any given street.

In the first response of Betgo I thought he had this reasoning. That´s why I responded. I never said that he shouldn´t call in the BB with that hand.

I hope this makes it clear finally

Martin Aigner

[Martin Aigner]

OK, of course you are right. I should have added that implied odds are of course important. In the original example the player was all in. My mistake.

Martin Aigner