Why dont you give away your money to poor people?

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like there are 4 groups, poor undriven, poor driven, rich undriven, and rich driven. Everybody in America has sufficient opportunity to 'make it' except for those who belong to the poor undriven group. I mean, I geuss it sucks but compared to any other economic system the world has ever seen...it stacks up pretty well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, although I'd argue that there are plenty of poor and driven people who, through no fault of their own, cannot escape the cycle of poverty they were born into. If you think we all have the same exact level of opportunity in America, you are not seeing this country for how it really is. We don't all start from the same place. Rich kids in fancy suburbs go to the best schools financed by their rich parents' property taxes. Poor kids go to public schools with no computers, crumbling walls, and that look more like prisons.

Read the newspapers. Both the NY Times and the Wall St. Journal recently did articles about the death of upward mobility in America. The divide between rich and poor has never been greater, and the divide widens every day.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I am not a communist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Ted Turner, Tiger Woods, etc. aren't communists either. They all give millions to charity.

[bkholdem]

What makes you think i'm not taking a stand on an issue? Your pretty good at pointing the finger at me. Why don't you declare yourself? My whole point is that the system is rediculous and pays people for not working. You make assmptions that I am somehow a bigot against poor people, I call you out on it, and you come back and throw more stones at me. Real swift.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because I am not a communist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Ted Turner, Tiger Woods, etc. aren't communists either. They all give millions to charity.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean they don't give extra millions to the US government to use to help disadvantaged people? I wonder why that is? Can't the US government do as good as, or a better job at helping people than private charities do? hahaa

[bkholdem]

Occasionally I do give small sums of money to poor people (I'm talking about US citizens here). Most of the times that I do, it is because I allow myself to be emotionally manipulated into doing so. The times that I do do it I feel conflicted about it because I recognize that 'giving money' isn't the best way to help them, and often it is counter productive and actually hurts them. It reinforces dependency. By and large poor people are not lacking in dependency skills, they are well versed in how to acquire goods and services by exhibiting signs of neediness, helplessness, and the lack of iniative and ability to do for themselves. Long term poor (again I am talking about US poor, and not the working poor) are quite proficient in how to remian dependent on the goverment (read: taxpayers).

I do not want to encourage begging for a number of reasons. And encouraging begging is exactly what I am doing whenever I give money to someone who asks for it. I do not want to make poor people better beggars. I do not want to reward adults for not working and using alcohol and drugs (in most but not all cases of chronic beggars). If I reinforce begging I am lessening their need to, and desire to consider making changes and seeking assistance in doing so.

I think by doing those things I am hurting the poor and they already have enough problems, I do not want to add to them. By giving them money that is what I am doing. I have dealt with poor people as part of my day to day work for over a decade. If someone can make a case for why giving them money is a good way to actually help them (rather than doing other things or using my time/money/other resources and skills in other ways that I think will actually help them) I will certainly listen.

[SheetWise]

KaneKungFu123 -

There are several ways to store capital, and money is only one of them. Knowledge is the most common. So, I was just wondering ...

A lot of people around here are smart. I am just curious why I dont see alot of threads about donating the majority of people's intelligence to ignorant people? Why do people learn and study when others are stupid? Why do we read books, when others are illiterate? have you people no shame? Why arent you giving your knowledge to stupid people?

SheetWise

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]
This is true. Wealthy democrats nor wealthy republicans, nor wealthy apolitical people would want to trade places with a poor person. I do not remember anyone stating that they would want to do this or that that life would be better than other more common lives where people work, etc. If I missed it please point it out to me. If not what is your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that healthy, non-addicted, middle-class people blame sick, crazy addicts to avoid feeling any responsibility for anyone but themselves. And - coincidently - to pat themselves on the back for having been fortunate in life.

I know, this could *never* happen to you. But I'm telling you you been lucky - whether you want to admit it or not - and you don't need to break your arm patting yourself on the back about it.

[ QUOTE ]
You have not made a case for why entitlement programs are the best way to assist the poor. My point is that they reinforce dependency and not working.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there people who game the system? Of course there are. Just like there are people at your work who take "sick" days, when they're not really sick, and don't chip in their quarter for their morning coffee. And traders at Enron (and a hundred other companies), who game the system for themselves, at the expense of innocent consumers.

Crazy drunks and addicts aren't any less likely to game the system than anyone else, and given that they're living on the edge, they have a hell of a lot more reason to game the system than anyone else.

[ QUOTE ]
If your job paid you 75% of your current salary for not showing up and you got to keep your medical care would you be showing up at 8am every day? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

If you wear your underpants on the outside of your pants, chances are you don't have a job, and you're not going to get one. If your address is "the shopping cart on the corner of 11th and Hobo Lane," your resume is going straight to the circular bin.

I'm also not sure what your talking about re: medical insurance. If bums are getting free health care - from the looks of the ones I know and see - they're not getting their money's worth.

Yes, it is true that if a homeless guy shows up at the EM with one of his arms hanging by the skin, they will make some effort to stitch it up before they boot him out again.

The other option is to let him bleed to death on the sidewalk next to the sliding glass doors.

That'll teach him, eh?

[ QUOTE ]
The situation with people on social security is that they were struggling and marginally employed before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before what?

Before they realized the CIA had implanted a chip in their haed? Before they woke up in the alley next to the dumpster with two fingers missing and no idea how they got there?

[ QUOTE ]
Some have no work history. Of course some are not capable of gainful employment, but many do have the ability to be (re)habilitated. But where is their incentive?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really think life as a homeless person is enough incentive, I'm not sure what you want to do to incentivize them. Electric shocks? Work camps?

[ QUOTE ]
They are getting paid for not working. Pay me for not working and what are you going to get? A non-working me, that's what you will get.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why aren't you not working?

[ QUOTE ]
So no, doctor's and lawyers are not dropping out of school to get on the SSI gravy train. But people with sporatic work histories and social problems who have difficulties are being given all types of handouts. What is that teaching them? How is that helping them?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your solution?

Do you seriously think there are no welfare-to-work programs?

Did you not know about Clinton's welfare reform program?

[ QUOTE ]
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

This simplistic platitude is entirely inappropriate to the situation. The problem here isn't lack of skills.

Btw, if you live somewhere where they can fish, you will see bums fishing.

[ QUOTE ]
Give me a free fish every day for a couple of years and I'm going to be sitting on your doorstep when you wake up with my hand out. I don't get the fish I'm going to bitch and complain. Maybe if you required that I go to the lake with you and if you required that I learned how to bait a hook, etc... I would be in a better position. Get it?

And it is not 'supposedly' that he gets social security. The vast majority of all long term homeless people get social security.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's your statistics? What's your source?

Link, please.

[ QUOTE ]
I have worked in the field for over a decade.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's nice.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't take arguments on the basis of personal authority. I could say, "I've worked in the field ten years," or 15, or whatever. I don't, because nobody here knows me, and they have no way of judging the veracity of anything I say.

It's not a good argument for the internet.


[ QUOTE ]
You are not going to hear this from many social service workers because they get paid to 'help' dependent people. They do not have incentives to make those people independent. That is reality too.

You think I get paid more money if I help my clients get rehabilitated better and faster than my peers? lol Hell no I don't. You know what I get? I get to graduate my clients and get more clients with more serious problems. So the harder I work the harder my work gets.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's the case in many fields. It's a challenge for a lot of us.

[ QUOTE ]
My peers who don't
challenge themeselves and their clients coast along in their routine and their clients don't improve and their job is relatively easy compared to someone working hard to help people improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition people who work hard work harder than people who don't. You're better off if you take pride in your work, without worrying about slackers who don't work as hard as you.

[ QUOTE ]
But at the end of the day everyone gets paid the same. In the poker world and the financial world you get paid based on results.

[/ QUOTE ]

When your results are dollars, that's easy to do. It's not so easy when you're trying to do something besides generate cash flow.

If you're a writer, you could produce a masterpiece, and watch while hacks get their hackneyed plots turned into movies over and over again. You could be a painter, die in poverty, and be recognized only after you're dead a hundred years.

You could be the only honest accountant at your firm, get fired for your honesty, and watch while the go-along, get-along guys get promoted for twisting the truth.

There's a lot of unfairness in the world.

[ QUOTE ]
Entitlement progams are the problem (sure some people need them as they are significanlty impaired and can't really make much progress, but that is not the mainstream)

So no, it wasn't really well put.

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]


Because I am not a communist.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I assume you're not a Christian, either. Right?

[coheedandcambria]

Because they are already screwed and by giving them my money I would be screwing myself too. Besides that I don't care about them.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is true. Wealthy democrats nor wealthy republicans, nor wealthy apolitical people would want to trade places with a poor person. I do not remember anyone stating that they would want to do this or that that life would be better than other more common lives where people work, etc. If I missed it please point it out to me. If not what is your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that healthy, non-addicted, middle-class people blame sick, crazy addicts to avoid feeling any responsibility for anyone but themselves. And - coincidently - to pat themselves on the back for having been fortunate in life.

****That is your point. Then you get on your horse and blame those people for being selfish when you are not doing anything to fix the problem yourself. By you pointing the finger at them you are just adding to the problem.

I know, this could *never* happen to you. But I'm telling you you been lucky - whether you want to admit it or not - and you don't need to break your arm patting yourself on the back about it.

***You don't know me, where I have been, what has happened to me or anything. You are pretty presumptious.

[ QUOTE ]
You have not made a case for why entitlement programs are the best way to assist the poor. My point is that they reinforce dependency and not working.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there people who game the system? Of course there are. Just like there are people at your work who take "sick" days, when they're not really sick, and don't chip in their quarter for their morning coffee. And traders at Enron (and a hundred other companies), who game the system for themselves, at the expense of innocent consumers.

Crazy drunks and addicts aren't any less likely to game the system than anyone else, and given that they're living on the edge, they have a hell of a lot more reason to game the system than anyone else.

***They have much less reason to game the system. They are putting nothing into it and taking thousands out of it. 0% in 100% out. This point of yours is crazy.


[ QUOTE ]
If your job paid you 75% of your current salary for not showing up and you got to keep your medical care would you be showing up at 8am every day? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

***What I'm talking about is that to the guy who was marginally employed for low wages the welfare system looks like a goldmine. Everything is relative. Working poor and those who have sporatic work histories at low wages have an incentive to quit work and game the system.

If you wear your underpants on the outside of your pants, chances are you don't have a job, and you're not going to get one. If your address is "the shopping cart on the corner of 11th and Hobo Lane," your resume is going straight to the circular bin.

***There are programs out there to help people like this. However they are voluntary. They turn their noses up at the programs but collect that check every month. The people in the system who bust their ass to get rehabilitated get paid the same as those who refuse to participate. That is crazy. They do less work (no rehab) and get paid the same. That is a huge problem with the system.

I'm also not sure what your talking about re: medical insurance. If bums are getting free health care - from the looks of the ones I know and see - they're not getting their money's worth.

***That has nothing to do with the care available. It is a direct result of their lifestyle choices and lack of follow up with medical care. Your view is pathetic. You make all sorts of excusess for those in the system. That reinforces the problem. Do doctor's come to your house to make sure your taking your medicine? Do they send a taxi to your house if you don't follow up like they tell you to bring you in for your next appointment?

Yes, it is true that if a homeless guy shows up at the EM with one of his arms hanging by the skin, they will make some effort to stitch it up before they boot him out again.

The other option is to let him bleed to death on the sidewalk next to the sliding glass doors.

****Sorry buddy try again. Free medical care is widely available in this country. Primary care doctor's and all. Call your local public hospital and ask what you need to do to get free care. You seem to have gotten your info from a couple of sound bites from the democratic press.


That'll teach him, eh?

More pointing the finger at 'them'. Good for you. I'm sure it makes you feel good. What are you actually doing to help the situation? Just bitching because there are people who don't care? HAHAHA The warm fuzzy feeling you give yourself by talking down about republicans is not helping homeless people.

[ QUOTE ]
The situation with people on social security is that they were struggling and marginally employed before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before what?

Before they realized the CIA had implanted a chip in their haed? Before they woke up in the alley next to the dumpster with two fingers missing and no idea how they got there?

***No. Before they started collecting a check every month regardless of whether or not they get treatment. Regardless of whether or not they smoke crack, etc. Why is that the best way to help them? Why is that good and responsible? It's easy to point the finger without defining your own position and debating the merits of that position.

[ QUOTE ]
Some have no work history. Of course some are not capable of gainful employment, but many do have the ability to be (re)habilitated. But where is their incentive?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really think life as a homeless person is enough incentive, I'm not sure what you want to do to incentivize them. Electric shocks? Work camps?

Maybe if we just send their SSI checks direct deposit to the crack dealer and booze store it will be better? Take out the middle man.

[ QUOTE ]
They are getting paid for not working. Pay me for not working and what are you going to get? A non-working me, that's what you will get.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why aren't you not working?

**More finger pointing. Respond to what others say without defining and defending your own position.


[ QUOTE ]
So no, doctor's and lawyers are not dropping out of school to get on the SSI gravy train. But people with sporatic work histories and social problems who have difficulties are being given all types of handouts. What is that teaching them? How is that helping them?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your solution?

Do you seriously think there are no welfare-to-work programs?

***Of course there are. They need to implement this in the SSI system, the shelter system, and all entitlement programs. Require participation in treatment and rehabilitiation as a condition of receiving goods and services. They can all do something. It promotes dignity.

Did you not know about Clinton's welfare reform program?

***Are you really that much of an idiot? That is a republican program you dork.

[ QUOTE ]
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

This simplistic platitude is entirely inappropriate to the situation. The problem here isn't lack of skills.

***It certainly is in part. Why don't you tell me what the promblem is if you think you understand it and we will discuss that.

Btw, if you live somewhere where they can fish, you will see bums fishing.

[ QUOTE ]
Give me a free fish every day for a couple of years and I'm going to be sitting on your doorstep when you wake up with my hand out. I don't get the fish I'm going to bitch and complain. Maybe if you required that I go to the lake with you and if you required that I learned how to bait a hook, etc... I would be in a better position. Get it?

And it is not 'supposedly' that he gets social security. The vast majority of all long term homeless people get social security.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's your statistics? What's your source?

Link, please.

+++I don't have links and don't care about links. I actually work right in the system. You believe what you want to believe. I have no reason to lie about reality.

[ QUOTE ]
I have worked in the field for over a decade.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's nice.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't take arguments on the basis of personal authority. I could say, "I've worked in the field ten years," or 15, or whatever. I don't, because nobody here knows me, and they have no way of judging the veracity of anything I say.

It's not a good argument for the internet.


[ QUOTE ]
You are not going to hear this from many social service workers because they get paid to 'help' dependent people. They do not have incentives to make those people independent. That is reality too.

You think I get paid more money if I help my clients get rehabilitated better and faster than my peers? lol Hell no I don't. You know what I get? I get to graduate my clients and get more clients with more serious problems. So the harder I work the harder my work gets.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's the case in many fields. It's a challenge for a lot of us.

[ QUOTE ]
My peers who don't
challenge themeselves and their clients coast along in their routine and their clients don't improve and their job is relatively easy compared to someone working hard to help people improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition people who work hard work harder than people who don't. You're better off if you take pride in your work, without worrying about slackers who don't work as hard as you.

[ QUOTE ]
But at the end of the day everyone gets paid the same. In the poker world and the financial world you get paid based on results.

[/ QUOTE ]

When your results are dollars, that's easy to do. It's not so easy when you're trying to do something besides generate cash flow.

If you're a writer, you could produce a masterpiece, and watch while hacks get their hackneyed plots turned into movies over and over again. You could be a painter, die in poverty, and be recognized only after you're dead a hundred years.

You could be the only honest accountant at your firm, get fired for your honesty, and watch while the go-along, get-along guys get promoted for twisting the truth.

There's a lot of unfairness in the world.

[ QUOTE ]
Entitlement progams are the problem (sure some people need them as they are significanlty impaired and can't really make much progress, but that is not the mainstream)

So no, it wasn't really well put.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not care if you believe that the vast majority of homeless people collect SSI checks or not. Go down to your city shelter and ask some people. Go there on the 29th of the month and see the croud. Then go back on the 2nd and see 75% of the people gone.