How important is math in poker?

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
is math not as important as it is hyped up to be

[/ QUOTE ]

Math is... everything? That is a question not a statement. Unlike Mike Caro I happen to be a propronent of learning the math of poker. It is a relatively simple thing to do and I've always believed very important to becoming a winning player. It is the prime reason that I migrated to the Sklansky & Malmuth way of playing poker.

But...but..not butt...but I have a buddy. He just may be the best mid limit player that I know. I'm sure he is the best at the limit he plays...well, pretty sure. O.K. maybe he is just one of the best at his limit but he is definitely one of the best. He does somewhat consider the math of poker when playing. But not precisely, I would say that he kind of guesses and has a general idea of what the right numbers might be but doesn't really concern himself much about it. I make him as the proverbial seat of the pants player with an O.K I'll give the math a little consideration attitude. I don't remember if it was Ray Zee or Mason that told me that you don't have to know the exact amount in the pot but you do need to have a good idea of how much is in it. Well it wouldn't matter if my buddy kneew how much is in the pot or not. He doesn't think in terms of outs vs pot odds. He plays according to what his instincts tell him. His instincts have treated him well for a long time. He does play somewhat according to the math of poker preflop. He makes calls according to pot size but he does it because his strategy calls for it. He will not call a raise unless he gets the right price according to his strategy. That's smart but it's not because he knows the math it's because he's memorized the numbers he needs to make certain calls. For instance and as a rough example if he has suited connectors he will only call a raise if he is getting 6 to 1 on the call. (I may be a little off on the numbers). He might be right to play this way but if you ask him why he needs 6 to 1 his answer will be "Because that's what my strategy calls for". Ask him why it calls for 6 to 1 and not 4 to 1 and he cannot answer other than to say that his strategy was developed by those that should know. I suppose that one could say that at least preflop he is using math to guide his decisions but I believe that is stretching things a bit.

The bottom line is that I believe that understanding and applying the math of poker is very important in becoming a winning player.There was a time I believed that to win in the Sklansky and Malmuth era where I felt most players would be playing according to modern poker theory that it wold be impossible to win without knowing and applying the math of poker. But I find that that is not true. Poker in B$M casinos is actually better (worse players) than it was just a few years ago. And online players are just horrible. And looking at my buddy's experience goes against my belief also. The funny thing is that my buddy would say that if I go by his experience that I would be results oriented. Of course he woud be right. But...oh well.

Vince

[12AX7]

Well Vince,
I'd say that what you are essentially saying is "doing the math on the fly is not important as long as your strategy has the math embedded in it".

I'd tend to agree. Often if you look at a reccomended play an author makes, and then go do the math, then it makes sense.

So I suspect it is possible to not have to be a mathematician who can calculate 5 decimals in your head on the fly. Your strategy just need to be underlying mathematically correct.

Clearly math underpins the whole game, if not the whole universe. But whether you have to be running a calculator in your head constantly is a different question.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
Your strategy just need to be underlying mathematically correct.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd guess this is pretty accurate.

Vince

In my game I don't sit there thinking of the math in my head, but the basic math to the game I believe is very important. Some amount of math on drawing outs along with pot odds can help everyone.

[12AX7]

Geez, that was a pretty contorted sentance, huh? Sometimes my typing and thinking are at different speeds. LOL! But you get the idea.

Essentially this is why "ABC poker" would work. If you have enough of the common situations worked out, you can play them with mental efficiency. Leaving you some space to think about adjustments.