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#1
10-03-2005, 06:47 AM
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Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
What do you think about the raise on the turn? Standard after the action so far, right?
But who bets the flop in the first place? and who would raise the flop when it comes back to you? 5-10 (10-handed) Hero is SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB fold and limpers call. 4 to the flop for 9 SB. Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls. 4 to the turn for 6.5 BB. Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls. HU to the river for 10.5 BB. River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Hero checks, MP2 checks. 
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#2
10-03-2005, 06:51 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it?
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#3
10-03-2005, 06:54 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
I would consider folding to the flop bet but would probably call. Folding might be better, though.
On the turn I would check-fold. I don't like that flop at all versus three limpers, and the third club on the turn doesn't cheer me up any.
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#4
10-03-2005, 07:45 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it? [/ QUOTE ] Easy now... I just want some discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards. Folding would not be an option when I could easily have the best hand and very often 6 outs if I'm behind. Since I want won't fold, raising is the only option. By raising I can make UTG fold his 6-outer or a weak made hand and play the rest of the hand heads-up with UTG+2's possible draw. Knocking the other players out will improve my winning chances a lot in this big pot. But that was about if MP2 had folded.... The situation in this hand was a bit different since he called. Folding is still not an option and calling is probably better than raising. On the turn, the card that comes and the action will then decide how I continue to play the hand.
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#5
10-03-2005, 08:01 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
To raise the turn is a big mistake. You should defenitely fold. Flop is probably good, but a fold would not be bad either. You need a little less than 4 outs here to be good. You have 6 outs to improve your hand, but the possibility exists that you are reversed dominated or that someone has got two pair or better with a hand like T9 or a slowplayed set, you just dont know. This reduces the strength of your draw to maybe 3,5-4 outs. Additional to that, the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] are definitely no clean outs, and may set up a redraw for a single club. The T and 9 are also always dangerous cards, often played which makes it likely that someone has hit them here. *And the board is coordinated which means if you improve on the turn you still have to dogde some additional cards on the river. I'd say its very close to a flop fold. The turn is not much to say about, anything but a fold here is wasted money.
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#6
10-03-2005, 08:05 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it? [/ QUOTE ] Easy now... I just want some discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards. Folding would not be an option when I could easily have the best hand and very often 6 outs if I'm behind. Since I want won't fold, raising is the only option. By raising I can make UTG fold his 6-outer or a weak made hand and play the rest of the hand heads-up with UTG+2's possible draw. Knocking the other players out will improve my winning chances a lot in this big pot. But that was about if MP2 had folded.... The situation in this hand was a bit different since he called. Folding is still not an option and calling is probably better than raising. On the turn, the card that comes and the action will then decide how I continue to play the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Your argument is well thought out, but wrong. Check-fold the turn. You're not protecting anything with a check-raise, nor is it a raise for value (maybe to villian's value, but not yours).
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#7
10-03-2005, 08:13 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it? [/ QUOTE ] Easy now... I just want some discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards. Folding would not be an option when I could easily have the best hand and very often 6 outs if I'm behind. Since I want won't fold, raising is the only option. By raising I can make UTG fold his 6-outer or a weak made hand and play the rest of the hand heads-up with UTG+2's possible draw. Knocking the other players out will improve my winning chances a lot in this big pot. But that was about if MP2 had folded.... The situation in this hand was a bit different since he called. Folding is still not an option and calling is probably better than raising. On the turn, the card that comes and the action will then decide how I continue to play the hand. [/ QUOTE ] I think putting more money in on the turn is spewing, plain and simple. UTG+2 likely has a pair and then checked because the flush card scared him. MP2 likes his hand enough to bet into a 3-flush board. You have a weak draw at best - ditch it!
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#8
10-03-2005, 08:33 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
I would consider folding to the flop bet but would probably call. Folding might be better, though. [/ QUOTE ] Folding was NOT an option. Folding would be terrible poker IMHO! Awful! One guy bet when it was checked to him. That means, well... he's got two cards. Another guy called. That means he obviously didn't have a hand good enough to raise. When the action was back to me I had an EASY call. The pot was laying me 11-to-1 and I could still have the best hand and if I was behind, I often have 6 outs. On average maybe I have 4-5 outs. Nevertheless... folding was NOT an option! [ QUOTE ] On the turn I would check-fold. [/ QUOTE ] The 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that came on the turn card was not my dream card. The action after I checked would decide how I continued to play the hand. If UTG+2 had bet again I would probably have folded... maybe. If UTG+2 had bet and MP2 had called I think I would have had a clear fold though. Now when UTG+2 checked and MP2 bet I had to decide what to do. Raise or fold? Calling was not an option. I can't let UTG or UTG+2 call with a made hand or a draw. What about folding? Noone had showed any strength so far in the hand. By the action I knew UTG+2 didn't have a strong hand since he backed off when he was called on the flop. MP2 didn't have a hand strong enough to raise on the flop, but of course he could have a made hand. But people calls with so many strange holdings on the flop for one bet and betting the turn when checked to, doesn't mean much. UTG could have been helped by the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], it's hard to tell... So why did I raise? If the turn card had been the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I would have had an EASY raise. The chances are just too great for me to consider folding in that case. Since the third club made an flush possible (and the 6 a straight) the decision was not as clear. But since noone had showed any strength so far and I could still have the best hand, or knock out the best hand, I decided to raise.
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#9
10-03-2005, 09:33 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
[ QUOTE ]
If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards [/ QUOTE ] If you are going in with this approach then CR the flop and lead the turn. It's still spewing but at least it is more in line with your thinking.
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#10
10-03-2005, 09:48 AM
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Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
All right. If MP2 turned over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or something on the river, then I guess your play probably won you the pot.
I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it. Edit: By the way, wouldn't firing a follow-up bluff on the river have been more consistent?
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