Big Pot Hands, Small Pot Hands

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

In looking back over my play this month, and analyzing my many obvious leaks, I thought of something Howard Lederer said about Layne Flack: "He's created an image of a crazy player ... but if you get into a big pot with Layne, you're going to need a big hand."

One of the things I'm working on is distinguishing "big pot" hands from "small pot" hands. One of my biggest leaks is getting into a big pot with a small pot hand, and being too stubborn to get out.

An example from yesterday's $215 SNG. It's fairly early, with (I think) 17 people left. My table is still full. I have T1075, having taken a substantial hit recently. The table is very tight in general, and I pick up QTs in third position. I make it 150, and get one caller (who has me covered). My reasoning pre-flop was that QTs is a good steal hand. If I'm reraised, I'll muck without regret. If I'm called, it has the potential to turn into a good hand.

The flop is T-4-A.

Here I misplayed it terribly. At this point, I have a decent "small pot" hand: 2nd pair with a marginal kicker, and a backdoor straight draw. I should have played it as a bluff-catcher, check-calling if he bet small at the flop, to see if it turned into something better before getting involved in a big pot.

Instead, I push in, representing AA, AK, or AT. He calls and turned up AQ. Oops. I have 2nd pair and a dead kicker vs. top pair ... totally dominated. I got lucky and caught a T at the flop, and my set held up. But I should've been out of that tourney right there.

If I'd played it correctly, as a bluff-catcher, I'd have checked the flop, and called a small bet. When the T came at the turn, THEN I would've had a big pot hand, and I'd have tried to get him into a big pot. I doubt I would have as I don't think he'd have paid me off with only top pair, but I'd have won a decent-sized small pot, with a small pot hand.

Part of the reason I think I've done better at the higher buy-ins is because there are so many small pots, so you can play with small pot hands. At the lower buy-ins, most of the contested pots turn into big pots, and when that's the case, you can't get involved without a big pot hand.

An example from a $55 SNG this week. It's early (again), with blinds only 15/30, but there are only 14 players left because people are pushing on any kind of a hand. This is the kind of game I hate. I catch JJ in 2nd position, and I limp. The player to my left, who has jumped in full-bore on a lot of pots, raises it to 180. It's folded back to me and I call.

The flop is A-J-Q.

I bet, he raises, I push, he calls ... and turns up AA.

Now, while this may seem "unlucky," I don't think it was. JJ isn't a big pot hand early in a tourney, and I knew this guy was going to turn this into a big pot. Again, I'd played a big pot with a small pot hand, and I got busted.

Part of this is something William has talked about at length: patience. It's one thing to stab at a pot with a marginal (small pot) hand, in the right situation. I.e.: (1) the table is tight; (2) most pots are small; (3) you have the discipline to get out if the put turns big; and, (4) you won't miss the chips if you have to muck.

But that is a very specific kind of situation, and it can change at any moment. If someone reraises, if the flop is scary, if the caller has put a big portion of his stack in, if the caller is a big stack who is very aggressive after the flop ... a small pot can suddenly become a big pot. And that's where I need to develop the patience and self-discipline to lay down that small pot hand and wait for a better opportunity.

Something else I want to add here. William and I have talked a fair bit since the flare-up, and we've put it behind us. I respect William's play, and his posts. I am never satisfied with my game, even when I'm winning. The 2nd place in that $215 paid $1080, but when I assess my play in that SNG, I look at that terrible misplay (above). I got lucky (yep, it does happen), but that's not winning poker. So I'm constantly looking to improve my game, and I learn a lot from William's posts ... even when we disagree.

Peace. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cris

[t_perkin]

I don't understand this concept of a bluff catcher. Can you explain?

What do you do on the turn after you have called his small bet if the T doesn't hit?

Can you explain a bit more about this big pot/small pot stuff?
Are you just saying: if there is some action you can assume people have a decent hand most of the time so make sure you have a decent hand too or get out.

Thanks

Tim

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Tim,

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this concept of a bluff catcher. Can you explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Bluff-catcher" is a term I stole from Howard Lederer, who discussed it at length in his commentary on the Showdown at the Sands telecast. A bluff-catcher is a hand that will beat many of the hands that would bet into it, but lose to most of the hands that would call it.

Example: Assume that, at a tight table, you raised from MP with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and had one caller from the button. There is 7.5 BB in the pot, and both you and the caller have deep money.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

This is a classic bluff-catcher situation. You have 2nd pair, with a marginal kicker, against a board that will often have hit the kinds of hands that would call your pre-flop raise. If you bet out, especially if you bet 5xBB or more to kill the odds for the flush draw, you will probably be beaten if called. You'd have to fold to a reraise, even though the reraiser might be semi-bluffing on a flush draw.

So you check, and the opponent bets 2xBB. That could be a weak Ace trying to feel you out, or AT hoping you'll raise so he can clobber you, KQ or 7h6h trying to build the pot for the draw, or a position raise with nothing. But the pot is giving you 3.5 to 1, and on deep money it's worth calling here.

Turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Now you have 2nd pair, plus a straight draw, although it's not the nut draw. (QJ is the nut straight, and there is a flush possibility.) It's a decent hand, but again, if you bet it aggressively you're likely to be beaten if called, and you'd have to fold to a reraise. So you check, and he bets another 2xBB. He could still be slow-playing you with a better hand, but it's very possible that he's bluffing at this pot. There is 11.5xBB in the pot, so you're getting good odds to call, and you do.

River: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Well, if he's on a heart draw, or a Broadway straight draw, he missed. He might have the Q-high straight, although you think he'd likely have bet it stronger if he did. He might be on AK, AQ, or AJ, all of which he might well have played this way because that T is on board and he's worried about two pair. Or he could be on Ace-rag, worried about running into a stronger Ace. You can't bet for value, because if he does call, it will likely be with a hand that beats your second pair. So, again, you check. He checks behind you, and turns up: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

You take a 13.5xBB pot, and that's a classic example of a well-played bluff-catcher hand.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do on the turn after you have called his small bet if the T doesn't hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to see what he did. If he bet strong, I have to get out of the hand, as I don't have a strong enough hand to continue. The nightmare (for me) would have been if I had hit a Q on the turn. I'd have had two pair, but bottom two pair, and he'd have had top two pair. Oops....

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain a bit more about this big pot/small pot stuff?
Are you just saying: if there is some action you can assume people have a decent hand most of the time so make sure you have a decent hand too or get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. 76s with a 9-7-4 board is a decent hand small pot hand, but if someone comes crashing in with a big raise or reraise, you have to take a second look at it. Now it's a big pot, and second pair and a trash kicker is not a big pot hand. You may indeed have the best hand -- he might be semi-bluffing on AK -- but do you really want to go bust on 76s?

If the flop had been 7-7-6, or 8-5-4, it's a different story. Now your 76s is a big pot hand, and you'd welcome a big pot with it. But you don't want to wade into battle on just second pair, trash kicker.

Don't get sucked into big pots with small pot hands. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cris

[t_perkin]

Seems to me this idea of a bluff catcher only works when playing against people who are misplaying their hands. Ok - there are a number of hands that would make the 2BB bet on the flop.

But who makes a 2BB bet on the turn? draws aren't going to do it, and this is not much of a bluff, you don't have to have much of a hand to call 2BB. Asomething is going to be betting harder or checking (and they would have bet harder on the flop).
In fact the only hand I can see making a 2BB bet here is the made straight trying to sell it to you, and even they would be apparently oblivious to the fact that you could be on a flush draw.
I just can't see how this is a well played hand by your opponent.

Doesn't bluff catching just amount to calling down your opponent?

It doesn't seem like great way to do it either:- either he has you beat in which case you should be folding because you have no real way of improoving. Or he is on a draw in which case you should be making him pay to draw. simply calling him down seems like the worst option.


tim

[CrisBrown]

Hi Tim,

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me this idea of a bluff catcher only works when playing against people who are misplaying their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is entirely true. BTW, this was a real hand from a recent $215 two-table SNG. I was not in the hand, and I think both of these players are better than I am, so I'm a bit reluctant to criticize them too much.

I think the button's (KQs) pre-flop call was fine, given the table dynamics. It was a tight table, and there was a lot of stealing. Reraising with KQs would have been risky, especially early on with deep money, but flat-calling from the button isn't a bad idea.

I suspect his eyes lit up at that straight-flush draw flop. Still, he realized that while his hand would be gorgeous if the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] landed, right now he had a naked drawing hand, vs. an Ace on board and a pre-flop raiser. I can't fault the feeler- and pot-building bet on the flop. He knew (or I knew, anyway, and I assume he's as observant as I am) that his opponent would not pay off any bets once the third heart hit. So if he wanted a pot to go with his flush, he had to build it. But he didn't want to bet so much that he'd hate laying it down to a reraise.

I'm less thrilled with his bet at the turn. The turn gave him nothing, and actually lessened his chances of winning the hand. He may have put his opponent on a bluff-catcher and figured himself to have 15 outs (any K, J, or heart). If that was his read and his logic, then with the money already in the pot he had good odds to bet for value at drawing a winner on the river. He obviously wasn't going to put any more money into the pot if he missed, and knew his opponent wouldn't bet or call if a K, J, or heart hit, so I can't criticize his turn bet all that much.

I'm not saying this was the best possible way for KQs to play this situation. I'm just saying I can see a logic in how he played it, given his likely knowledge of his opponent, and the situation.

I've had good success with bluff-catcher hands. I don't always play them, and sometimes I misplay them. And there are times when your opponent isn't bluffing; he may have a marginal hand, but it's better than yours. E.g.: what if the button had held A7s instead of KQs? He might then have played it exactly the same way, fearing a bigger Ace, but still have won the pot. In that situation, both would have been playing their hands as bluff-catchers, something that happens quite often.

All in all, I think the concept of the bluff-catcher is a useful tool to have in your bag, but it's not something you can or should use every time you catch some piece of a flop, and especially not on a weak starting hand. I think the general rule against calling your money off with a second-best hand is solid advice, and you should only go against it if the situation is right -- if you can afford to lose a small pot -- and you feel very sure of your reads.

Cris

[Prickly Pete]

It seems to me that playing a "Bluff Catcher" on a pot that you've raised preflop doesn't make much sense generally. It works well in a situation like this: you're in the BB and flop top pair, weak kicker.

[jedi]

I want to revisit this post. I had a few hands, where I wound up having top pair, top kicker and got beat. Example, I raise with AK pre-flop and get called. I spike an A or a K on the flop and bet pot, get re-raised all in and decide to call. This is early in the tournament, so I should know that I'm beat, but I'm pretty stubborn about the whole thing and lose anyways. Usually I'm shown down a set or 2-pair.

Is betting the pot on the flop a mistake? Does it turn a small pot into a big pot? Is Top-pair, top-kicker a small pot hand? Survival strategies should also take precedence here, right?

I have the hardest time laying down TPTK at the lower buy-in SnGs, because I realize that people will be taking shots with less than what I have. Maybe I should just resign myself to the fact that occasionally I'll be laying down the better hand, because the times I'm beaten I'd be out, or extremely short stacked.

[CrisBrown]

Hi jedi,

[ QUOTE ]
Example, I raise with AK pre-flop and get called. I spike an A or a K on the flop and bet pot, get re-raised all in and decide to call. This is early in the tournament, so I should know that I'm beat, but I'm pretty stubborn about the whole thing and lose anyways. Usually I'm shown down a set or 2-pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is close to an auto-read. Yes, TPTK is a very good hand, and it's worth betting the pot with. But when you've raised preflop and been called, then you bet the pot at the flop and get reraised all-in, you can almost guarantee that TPTK is not good.

Cris

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi jedi,

This is close to an auto-read. Yes, TPTK is a very good hand, and it's worth betting the pot with. But when you've raised preflop and been called, then you bet the pot at the flop and get reraised all-in, you can almost guarantee that TPTK is not good.

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I've always have had this fear that people are bluffing back at me. This is a HUGE leak in my game because I always have to "see it for myself" that I'm beat.

I suppose I'll be throwing away the best hand occasionally, but that's better than busting out of the tournament.

[Prickly Pete]

Jedi, I generally agree with Cris here that the raise allin signifies they can beat your top pair. But, I think you have to consider where you're playing. At Stars, the raise and bet 1st round probably doesn't cost you more than about 10 to 15% of your stack. And that's painless enough to get away from.

However, at a Party SNG, where the raise and bet may represent 30% of your stack, it's hard to get away from. In fact, I don't think I'd ever fold AK that hits an A or a K in a low limit Party SNG (the ones that only have 800 chips).