Overcards out of position, too weak?

Eyeback · #1 03-10-2005, 07:55 AM

Well, this is a very common situation that I'm not comfortable with playing.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

This should be a no-brainer.

jaxUp · #2 03-10-2005, 08:10 AM

Your check resigns you to a fold here. You can maybe keep hammering away, but you'd need a good read to do it. The pot is small, and check/folding this turn is fine IMO.

ArturiusX · #3 03-10-2005, 08:32 AM

I like the bet with the 2 clubs, but on the turn you have to fold with no improvement.

TwoShedsJackson · #4 03-10-2005, 08:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the bet with the 2 clubs, but on the turn you have to fold with no improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

BiffMan · #5 03-10-2005, 02:48 PM

I'm struggling as bit with overcards out of position myself... Is the thinking that in order to bet the turn again, you need to be drawing to something other than just top pair with good kicker (or have a large pot) in order to lead out betting the turn? This is a good example for me since the board isn't particurally scary... Are we concerned that even if we spike top pair we won't win, or that there just aren't the pot odds to continue hammering at it?

Isura · #6 03-10-2005, 03:06 PM

I don't think you need anything more than just an overcards to bet the turn HU in this pot. But you do need to have a pretty good feel for the opponent, and access if you think his turn bet means strength. There's a good chance you're still ahead on the turn.

UncleSalty · #7 03-22-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you need anything more than just an overcards to bet the turn HU in this pot. But you do need to have a pretty good feel for the opponent, and access if you think his turn bet means strength. There's a good chance you're still ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I agree here. If you just get a call to a turn-bet you're getting 5.5:1 odds while overcards require about 7:1 if you're against a pair. Plus, w/ the CO limping pre-flop and an 8 and 9 on the board, there's always a chance that aces are dirty if he limped w/ A8 or A9. (If CO holds TJ your queens are dirty too.) If you get raised, you're almost certainly behind unless the CO is aggressive enough to raise the turn holding AJ or AT.

-Salty

tiltaholic · #8 03-22-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you need anything more than just an overcards to bet the turn HU in this pot. But you do need to have a pretty good feel for the opponent, and access if you think his turn bet means strength. There's a good chance you're still ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown Party 1/2 player I bet this turn a lot. Almost always, since the pot is heads up. 100 hands later, after I have confirmed my read that he is a typical weak tight Party 1/2 player, I'll usually bet the river unimproved too and watch him fold.

Reads are extremely important here, as is your table image. Some players will never fold their bottom/middle pair, especially if you've made some plays that look strange to them -- they'll always call you down. I'd still bet the turn then (likely) and but would check the river.

UncleSalty · #9 03-22-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you need anything more than just an overcards to bet the turn HU in this pot. But you do need to have a pretty good feel for the opponent, and access if you think his turn bet means strength. There's a good chance you're still ahead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown Party 1/2 player I bet this turn a lot. Almost always, since the pot is heads up. 100 hands later, after I have confirmed my read that he is a typical weak tight Party 1/2 player, I'll usually bet the river unimproved too and watch him fold.

Reads are extremely important here, as is your table image. Some players will never fold their bottom/middle pair, especially if you've made some plays that look strange to them -- they'll always call you down. I'd still bet the turn then (likely) and but would check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, analyzing this originally I was viewing as if we are already beat and drawing. But the reality is that I am usually maniacally aggro in this situation w/ AQ in real life. I retract my previous analysis. I think the correct line is to continue leading the turn and river unless the opponent tells you to slow down w/ a raise. Then it becomes important to consider your reads.

callydrias · #10 03-10-2005, 02:34 PM

Looks fine