missed value with qq?

Dommer · #1 07-13-2005, 10:38 PM

Got a bit more action than I wanted with QQ here and I shutdown. Both were tight players, one being 12/5 and the other being 9/1. Not a huge amount of hands on them though. How wrong is it to stop betting like I did? How would you have played it? I wimp out on my apparently weak hands like this a lot, and I think I miss a lot of value. I was fairly sure I was ahead on the river but also felt it unlikely they would call with anything (unless they thought I was bluffing ak).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

Hero ($198)
SB ($211.51)
BB ($516.06)
UTG ($80.55)
UTG+1 ($250.75)
MP1 ($212.60)
MP2 ($204.65)
MP3 ($252.30)
CO ($207.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, UTG calls $10, UTG+1 calls $10, MP1 calls $10.

Flop: ($51) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $30, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $30, MP1 calls $30.

Turn: ($141) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($141) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $141

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 9s 9h (one pair, nines).
MP1 has Th Ah (one pair, tens).
Hero has Qh Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $141.

Little Fishy · #2 07-13-2005, 10:47 PM

I'd bat this turn. I feel that even an oddly played AA or KK would have bet or raised that flop fearing a clubdraw... so what is out there?? AK, AQ, JJ? the only resonable hand that you're behind of on the turn is TT for the set. I say bet this turn and let a club draw or an AK make a mistake.

Dommer · #3 07-13-2005, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bat this turn. I feel that even an oddly played AA or KK would have bet or raised that flop fearing a clubdraw... so what is out there?? AK, AQ, JJ? the only resonable hand that you're behind of on the turn is TT for the set. I say bet this turn and let a club draw or an AK make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much do you bet on the turn, and what do you do if you are reraised? I'd feel pretty pot committed with any reasonable bet on the turn I guess is my problem. Bleh I'm just majorly scared of losing my stack here v two tight players... guess I was playing scared since I had just moved up. Just seems it'd be a miracle to get called by a hand I'm beating. Although sometimes I think these guys are tight from their stats, then they do something completely nutty.

Little Fishy · #4 07-13-2005, 11:04 PM

I think AT, JJ or two clubs might call you... i think these are the hands a villain might also put a play on you with by coming over the top...

TT will also most defenitly call, but raise less often.

I say bet about $100 you'll usually take it down and if you don't then you're likely ahead most of the time anyway...

remember being pot committed is a good thing when you have the best hand....

a side note... I play full ring NL$25 max so you might want to take my adice with a grain of salt, I would assume our games are slightly different.

imported_anacardo · #5 07-13-2005, 11:06 PM

Against fairly tight players on a board like this, I would think a half-pot on the turn and a check behind on the river would do the trick. I doubt either one of these guys calls a half-pot turn bet with those holdings, though.

theben · #6 07-13-2005, 11:08 PM

i might bet 60 on the turn then check the flip up on the river. since you are OTB, you should be more inclined to bet since you act last and dont have to check the river

but i think a turn check is OK too, since the pot is so big and you dont want things getting out of hand

Dommer · #7 07-13-2005, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i might bet 60 on the turn then check the flip up on the river. since you are OTB, you should be more inclined to bet since you act last and dont have to check the river

but i think a turn check is OK too, since the pot is so big and you dont want things getting out of hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you check the river like I did too? I just didn't see any possible value... but I also didn't see anything that was beating me playing like that. I suppose they would have called 15-20$ or something [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

xorbie · #8 07-14-2005, 12:43 AM

One of them is likely drawing, and by checking behind on the turn you give them very good odds on the flop. The way you played it, bet the river because you're probably going to run into someone who's "inducing a bluff" from missed overcards.

wtfsvi · #9 07-14-2005, 01:48 AM

Over how many hands are these boys 12/5 and 9/1? I find it fairly strange that anyone who has those stats over a lot of hands will call a large pf-raise OOP with ATo.

Turn check is good, you should probably value bet river. (About half pot bet. Little less perhaps, against these tighites.) If might be so confused that I check behind on the river too though, I can't blame you.

Dommer · #10 07-14-2005, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Over how many hands are these boys 12/5 and 9/1? I find it fairly strange that anyone who has those stats over a lot of hands will call a large pf-raise OOP with ATo.

Turn check is good, you should probably value bet river. (About half pot bet. Little less perhaps, against these tighites.) If might be so confused that I check behind on the river too though, I can't blame you.

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Well the ATo guy was incinerate, who I've known for a long while, and I know he's tight in general. He can do some crazy things sometimes so he's a bit of a livewire though. The other guy tho, the guy with 99 who had 9/1 stats, I only had like 50 hands on. I guess I needed more hands to really label both of them as tight players. Incin was the one who had me the most worried though, his call after the 99 guy called looked very strong. Good to know my turn check is ok though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PS. I think incin called just because of the 4-1 pot odds and implied odds of flopping something like trips, never seen him call with ATo heads up.